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Subj: Re: Politics
Date: 95-06-27 00:24:04 EDT
From: bobking@gate.net (Robert King)
To: WendyChap@aol.com
CC: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu, VegaNet@aol.com, drhg24a@prodigy.com

Yeah, I really like "Institution Green" too, especially as an example of that unique Suzanne Vega perspective that never seems to fail to render familiar things bizarre and a bit frightening. I mean, who else would turn the act of voting into something like lining up at St. Peter's desk to enter paradise? ("Find my name inside that book," etc.).

I see it as political in only a very broad sense, but certainly the song is weighted with a lot of metaphorical meaning: "I cast my vote upon this earth, take my place for what it's worth" refers not just to voting in an election but to making some meaningful connection with the universe and taking part in it. (At least that's my opinion; a much greater authority happens to be lurking on this list, of course.)

That strikes me as the buried theme of the whole album: From "Tired of Sleeping" on, Suzanne just seems to be aching with hunger for meaning and purpose in life, impatient to awake, frustrated by an inability to speak, sure there must be something beyond the pen and the paperwork and duty and discipline. "Institution Green" is smothered with the kind of impersonality we find all around us (not just in government offices, though her description here seems right-on): no one will meet our gaze, nothing to do but watch the floor and wait. And of course, at the end of the album is "Pilgrimage," the journey not just toward the Buddhist nirvana but toward Suzanne's reunion with her natural father.

So yeah, I've done my share of guessing about what was going through Suzanne's mind around this time.

I think there's clearly a lot of spirituality involved here, but I think think there's a strong political element at work as well, exemplified by the lines "Lose me on the printed page/where to point the aimless rage." Isn't that essentially what's happened to American society in the past few decades? We're drowning ("lost") in more information than ever before (printed and otherwise), yet large segments of the population have no idea what to do with the rage and energy they feel. What gets decided at the grass-roots level, at least anything of any importance? The labor movement once gave working people a voice, but that's undergoing a slow death. The anti-war movement of the '60s shook Washington to its foundations, but that passion for change dissipated in the '70s. Many ordinary people (who tend not to be as stupid as the media generally assume they are) see their needs and viewpoints ignored when politics turns into a pointless game of sound-bites among elites (such as those famous "populists," Clinton and Gingrich).

No, I'm not ascribing those opinions to Suzanne. But in the Learning Annex talk, she gave a fascinating description of the very political (and left-leaning) environment she grew up in in New York in the '60s, and then her disillusionment when, as I think she put it, she turned 15 and nobody gave a shit anymore. She said that's what turned her off of the idea of using her songs to express political opinions; she once thought Bob Dylan would have been the ideal president, but she later concluded that music couldn't change the world and a song wouldn't change people's minds. So she's tended to focus more on personal concerns -- though for what I regard as fairly political reasons. She's certainly not alone of her generation to conclude the same thing. (I think the whole topic would make a great thesis for someone: "Post-Hippie Political Disillusionment as Reflected in the Songs of Suzanne Vega.")

Anyway, getting back to my point, I think part of what comes out in "Institution Green" and the album as a whole is a yearning for a lost political connection as well as a spiritual one -- essentially, for a purpose in life. "We could be fixing what is broken," as she puts it.

Them's my thoughts, in any case. Sorry if this seems incoherent, but I'm operating on 2 hours of sleep. I just didn't want to miss a chance to discuss a song from what I regard as SV's most sadly underrated album. (It was certainly underrated by me at first -- I really couldn't stand it. Forgive me Suzanne, I was young and foolish!)

-- Bob, pontificating as usual

Subj: Re: Politics
Date: 95-06-27 11:02:54 EDT
From: WendyChap@aol.com
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
CC: VegaNet@aol.com, drhg24a@prodigy.com, bobking@gate.net

Bob,

Thanks for your insightful and far reaching reply to the Institution Green issue. I agree. Suzanne's "Politics" are from a personal standpoint--our inner political selves and certainly most of her socio/political songs demonstrate feelings of loss of identity. "Bad Wisdom"--which I heard Suzanne say could be about anyone w/ any kind of disease--including AIDS--is a good example of this government non-concern--or as Suzanne put it in her talk--no one giving a shit!

There seems to be the underlying issue of this catastrophic disease that this person has that alienates him/her from the rest of society and his/her family and nobody seems to care what happens to this person. So, in that sense, there is the larger socio/political issue of the song. But, it is also very personal: Mother your eyes have gone suddenly cold/And it wasn't what I was expecting/Gone serious and shy/And they can't figure why...Interesting to me--and this certainly relates to Bob's words--that her socio/political issue deal w/ people becoming introverted in response to this dissilusionment w/ the political scene. Because of the impersonality of politics and "falling through the cracks"--people go w/in themselves to find an understanding they can't get from the rest of the world--and that's where Suzanne's political songs connect w/ her more religious themes--as Bob was saying.

One more point, Bob--thank you for mentioning "Days..." as a great album--it is surely my favorite and always has been. The day it came out, I called my best friend and excitedly said: "It's her best album!" I remember thinking how far SV had progressed in her themes and music on that album. Yes, I do believe that she progressed even further w/ 99.9--but it didn't hold the same meaning as "Days..." for me. Sometimes I say, she went a step to far maybe--not that it's not a great album--I just think that things really cames together on "Days..." The idividual stories of people lost in society and their own thoughts that predominated the first two albums took on more shape and meaning on the "Days..." album--her search for her father and "nirvana" and understanding w/in a larger society reflected througout the album. I remember SV saying that she didn't write about herself necessarily, but about the part of herself that is similar to everyone else. I think that sentement was played out on the "Days..." album. The world certainly has an affect on us all and we all have some journey for our own truths w/in that world--I think that's what "Days..." is about. "Days of Open Hand--grasping for meaning in an impersonal world--through our own thoughts and beliefs no matter how they might be shaped or formed or changed.

Wendy!

Subj: Re: Politics, etc.
Date: 95-06-28 17:10:39 EDT
From: rwalters@sugarland.unocal.com (Rob Walters)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu

Hello everyone,

I've enjoyed reading Bob's and Wendy(!)'s thoughts on the political content in Suzanne's songs. "Days..." took awhile to grow on me, too, but now it's one of my favorites. I like the idea of the theme of a journey - from the inner search in "Tired of Sleeping" and "Rusted Pipe" to those that focus on the relationship to society, i.e. "Institution Green" (as mentioned), "Big Space", and finally "Pilgrimage" to pull it all together.

BTW - anyone know about additional preliminary song titles for this album? We know that "Room off the Street" was originally "Cuba", but I saw a listing on one of those interactive machines in the record store that showed "This Long of a Winter" for "Rusted Pipe" and "Feeling in the Pipeline" for "Big Space". Strange, eh? Maybe this is one that only Suzanne or her management really knows. Anyway...

Also enjoyed reading the answers by Brian Rose to the questions submitted. I really liked the spirit of his replies. I didn't intend to come off as some sort of 'list-gestapo' with my post about 'gossip', so apologies if it came out sounding like that.

I'm going to have to _temporarily_ unsubscribe 'till I move to my new address. And, yes, I _do_ know how to do this w/o bugging everyone! Keep up the interesting discussions! :)

-Rob
rwalters@sugarland.unocal.com <-- slightly different address coming soon

Subj: Re: more 'days'
Date: 95-06-29 10:24:40 EDT
From: sundiver@ix.netcom.com (Alan)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu

You wrote:
>
>An illustrative example in the SV library would be "In Liverpool," which I
>absolutely *adore*, even though it contains just about the only lyric she's
>ever written that to this day still hits my ear badly. It's right after the
>line about the boy who "sounds like he's missing something or someone that
he
>knows he can't have now"-- it's the line: "And if he isn't I certainly am."
>This sticks out every time because I'm always thinking, "We *know* the
>narrator is feeling that way, very clearly, that's the beauty of the song"--
>it didn't seem like her to suddenly be spelling something like that out. But
>the music, the vibe, is just so great that it really doesn't much matter.
>

Yes, "In Liverpool" is one of my favorite of Suzanne's songs, there's something in the music that hits me right in the heart and nearly brings tears to my eyes, and the lyrics are important too but they seem to sort of take on a secondary role from the music -- to me, anyway. I'm talking specifically about the lines:

And the boy in the belfry he's crazy,
He's throwing himself down from the top of the tower...

On second thought, maybe the words and music are equal partners, but it was the music that first made me focus more attention on this song.

Wow! Yep, this is my favorite from 99.9F.

Alan

Jeremy et.al.

While I don't completely agree w/ your criticisms of the music on "Days..." I think you made your point very well--don't worry. "Solitude Standing" did flow in a way. But for me, a lot of the songs flowed musically on "Days...." especially "Institution Green"--think about the militaristic drums in the background of this song about being lost w/in a governmental system of politics as usual. Think about the ethereal(sp? sorry) background vocals especially around the bridge where she's doing the aaahhhh aaaaahhhh--while those drums become louder and louder until they---"BURST!!!" or at least that's what it sounds like to me. The music enhances that song so directly--like the person is about to burst from this sort of anonymity--not counting--it's all being built up inside--it eventually becomes too much. I think the music refelcts that.

Yes, "Tired of Sleeping" one of my fav. SV songs--the one SV song I always perform everytime I play in public--does seem to be simplistic--but, it's like a child talking to her mother about having bad dreams--there is something about that story that requires that sort of simplistic drone.

"50/50 Chance"--well, Phillip Glass did the arangement so of course it's Gothic sounding and interesting and enhances the dramatic/tragic subject matter.

The hand claps on "Room off the Street"--along w/ the music enhance that sort of "Cuban" feel.

I know I don't have time to do all the songs and talk directly about how I think on this album more than any other--Suzanne's music and lyrics finally met and worked "harmoniously" (sp? again sorry) together. The music reflected--for me--what was going on in each song--enhanced it--became part of the story. That's just my opinion--maybe even Suzanne herself would disagree.

But as far as 99.9F Degrees goes--even though it is brilliant--it is not what I envisioned for Suzanne--maybe that's good--she's full of surprises--but it sort of went over the top for me. Lyricaly, most songs didn't hold the same quality as the song's on the previous three albums and musically--it seperated itself from the songs--except for "Blood Makes Noise"

Lyricaly: Song of Sand--great guitar
Bad Wisdom--timely piece
But the most importatnt point for me is that I like being on this Suzanne Vega ride. I like that she isn't afraid to experiment and try "anything" and see what happens. I'm glad she didn't stick w/ the "Solitude Standing" sound because she new it was a successful sound--she pushed on--further--harder (99.9F) and I look forward to her next c.d. for the next step she takes.

Someone said when the 99.9F Degrees album came out that I probably wouldn't like it because it was more industrial sounding and I said: "Are you kidding, Suzanne Vega could get up on stage and make scratching noises and I would think it's brilliant: Scratching noises--oh my god--no one has ever thought of that!!!!" (LOL!) But seriously, she's a brilliant artist and whatever musical journey she takes, I know, I want to be on that train!

Wendy!

Subj: Re: more 'days'
Date: 95-06-29 17:29:48 EDT
From: Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se (Hugo Westerlund ipm)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu (Undertow)

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 WendyChap@aol.com wrote:

> But the most importatnt point for me is that I like being on this Suzanne
> Vega ride. I like that she isn't afraid to experiment and try "anything" and
> see what happens. I'm glad she didn't stick w/ the "Solitude Standing" sound
> because she new it was a successful sound--she pushed on--further--harder
> (99.9F) and I look forward to her next c.d. for the next step she takes.
>

> Someone said when the 99.9F Degrees album came out that I probably wouldn't
> like it because it was more industrial sounding and I said: "Are you
> kidding, Suzanne Vega could get up on stage and make scratching noises and
I

> would think it's brilliant: Scratching noises--oh my god--no one has ever
> thought of that!!!!" (LOL!) But seriously, she's a brilliant artist and
> whatever musical journey she takes, I know, I want to be on that train!

I completely agree with you, Wendy! Even though you may not immediately like everything Suzanne does or says, going back to it over and over again, like I've done so many times, is extremely rewarding. You learn something new about the world, and about yourself. In fact, it is precisely because of this initial dislike or uneasiness you get so much out of Suzanne's art. In a very gentle and beautiful way, she questions your most basic beliefs, until you find the very essence of your experience of life.

I don't know if other artists' works could have the same effect on me. I've never had the patience to stick to one artist for so long. But what was it that made me stick to Suzanne? Certainly not an immediate understanding -- I found her lyrics irritatingly vague at first (what, exactly, did she mean by "secret burning thread", for instance). There was simply something that kept me listening as if spellbound -- some deep part of me *knew* that in these songs lay hidden a key to my forgotten, inner world. And I must say I was extremely well rewarded. You may call this a work of intuition, or the power of a great songwriter and artist. Anyway, it has meant the world to me. I'd think that at least some of you out there would agree.

So, I'll stick to this Suzanne Vega ride, no matter what she does next...

Yours
/Hugo
...back after a long silence.
Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se

Subj: Re: more 'days'
Date: 95-06-29 18:10:59 EDT
From: EricS10332@aol.com
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu

In a message dated 95-06-29 17:29:48 EDT, Hugo Wrote:

>I don't know if other artists' works could have the same effect on me.
>I've never had the patience to stick to one artist for so long. But what
>was it that made me stick to Suzanne? Certainly not an immediate
>understanding -- I found her lyrics irritatingly vague at first (what,
>exactly, did she mean by "secret burning thread", for instance). There
>was simply something that kept me listening as if spellbound -- some
>deep part of me *knew* that in these songs lay hidden a key to my
>forgotten, inner world. And I must say I was extremely well rewarded. You
>may call this a work of intuition, or the power of a great songwriter and
>artist. Anyway, it has meant the world to me. I'd think that at least
>some of you out there would agree.
>

Well I certainly agree with you, Hugo! For the last 10 years (has it been that long?) - Suzanne has continued to produce carefully crafted albums - no compromise of her art for commerce... That's why I've stuck with her. No repetitive, monosyllabic sell-out - always some quality in each song that brings you back...Hers are enduring pieces...That we're still discussing the stuff she wrote a decade ago is evidence of that!

Look at some other artists that I've liked at one point or another - Springsteen, for example...once they've achieved some success and the pressure to generate hits overtakes their desire to produce quality music:

Old "Boss":
-----------------
Madman drummers bummers and indians in the summer
with the teenage diplomat
In the dumps with the mumps as the adolescent pumps
his way into his hat

Newer "Boss"
--------------------
Born in the USA
Born in the USA
Born in the USA
I'm a cool rockin' daddy in the USA
- - -
As for 'Days' - That's the album I listen to most often! I think the music is wonderful - particularly on 'Rusted Pipe', '50/50 Chance' and Pilgrimage'... Have you heard 'Rusted Pipe' live? One of the versions I have, a soundcheck version, is terrific...

Glad to have you back, Hugo!

Eric

Subj: Suzanne and the Boss
Date: 95-06-29 18:51:52 EDT
From: tbuckley@mail.utexas.edu (Tom Buckley)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu

Nice comment, Eric, that Suzanne hasn't comprised her art for commerce. The Springsteen comparison is particularly well-chosen. As I was perusing the liner notes to Springsteen's "Greatest Hits" (it's telling that Suzanne would, I'm certain, never produce a greatest hits collection), I was struck by how each song's identity--to Springsteen--seemed tied to its commercial appeal (so many of his liner-note comments about the songs began, "This song made it all the way to #x on the charts").

That said, I probably wouldn't use "Blinded by the Light" to reflect the old Boss any more than I'd use "Born in the USA" to represent the new. "Blinded" is, to me, an undisciplined stream of consciousness piece that's enjoyable to listen to but which pales when compared with the writing on "The Wild, the Innocent, and the E-Street Shuffle" and "Born to Run." Similarly, I'd argue that "Born in the USA" is a fine piece; the fact that it was misunderstood by the masses isn't Springsteen's fault. On the other hand, the stuff on "Human Touch" is, I think, embarrassingly commercial and is evidence of what you're getting at, Eric.

Looking back over what you wrote, it strikes me that you chose the two pieces that you did mostly to show the difference in Springsteen's use of language. I wonder, though, if the language in each song skillfully reflects the narrator of each--the unrestrained high school kid and the "average Joe" vet?

What do *you* think?

Sorry to get off the subject of Suzanne. Bottom line: I agree that her work is enduring and that Springsteen's has gradually become more commercial and far less satisfying.

Tom

Tom Buckley
Division of Rhetoric and Composition
University of Texas at Austin
(512) 471-8368

Subj: Re: Discussion of "Days..."
Date: 95-06-29 19:56:32 EDT
From: EricS10332
To: pmurf@ix.netcom.com

Hey Paul!!

In a message dated 95-06-29 19:29:35 EDT, you write:

> I find it to
>be Suzanne's "darkest" album thematically; perhaps this is why it
>bombed in the marketplace.

I don't know about that... I don't blame the album - I think that the album wasn't well promoted. There are plenty of 'dark' albums and songs that have become commercial successes.

In the interviews, there are many references to Suzanne's popularity in the UK. Some have hypothesized that UK listeners are more sophisticated, appreciate language and its nuances to a greater extent than do the Americans. I think that's the wrong conclusion.

Having lived in the UK when 'Days' was released and during the tour, I was able to see the promotional differences first hand. Examples - you'd hear b-sides from 'Days' as well as earlier albums on the radio, promotional posters were part of the set on the popular British soap 'EastEnders', Suzanne released the book 'Bullet In Flight' and did a book signing in the West End, there were something like 8 shows at two theaters in London. TV and radio interviews, a BBC documentary, etc.. were all on the air. I could walk into a Swindon WHSmith and get a collection of Suzanne's videos - I CANT do that in NYC! 'Bullet' isnt available in the States, either...

What do we have in the states? The MTV/VH1 infomercials for the latest Michael Jackson or Madonna album, The Box, Rolling Stone, Top 40 radio, SPIN - all promotional tools for the most popular artists. As an investor, why chance an investment on a new 'risk taking' Suzanne album when Whitney Houston is doing a Christmas album?

I think that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. The A&Mers in the UK can point to their past S.V. success in determining future promotion and the US A&Mers will probably throw more money at Blues Traveler, pointing to disappointing sales for the last SV album that they didn't throw enough money at.. Promotion = sales.

Maybe that'll be a strength of the website - fans can stay together and get the latest info and sound clips and tour info whether or not their artist's label puts out the investment on promo...??

Eric

Subj: Re: Suzanne and the Boss
Date: 95-06-29 20:20:06 EDT
From: EricS10332
To: tbuckley@mail.utexas.edu

In a message dated 95-06-29 18:51:52 EDT, you write:

>As I was perusing
>the liner notes to Springsteen's "Greatest Hits" (it's telling that Suzanne
>would, I'm certain, never produce a greatest hits collection)

Oops! If you'll check the 'Correspondence' section of the website, or Hugo's FAQ, you'll see that Suzanne *is* planning to do a "Best Of" album following 'Love Hotel' - her comments:

" I also want to put out a "Best of", but the kind I like is the kind you hate -- I love records that collect an artist's singles throughout a period, with no odds and ends, no filler, no experiments, just the tried and true. Sometimes I'll buy that instead of someone's entire collection (like the Pretenders, for example.) I am always assuming people don't have the money or patience to buy tapes of someone fooling around, because I never did. But I will consider it -- PJ Harvey's demos are supposed to be even better than her second record, for example. "

Regarding Springsteen - the examples were just the first things that popped into the noggin. From a phrase that obviously took some work to the repetitious, simplicity that seems to go along with commercial success. I stopped buying Springsteen albums after 'Born in The USA' - (I still don't think an 'average Joe vet' would refer to himself as a 'cool rockin' daddy'!)

Other stuff: I thought Suzanne's comments about Brian's Q/A were pretty interesting - particularly the revelation that Brian was the narrator in 'Tom's Diner' - I'm surprised that he didn't mention it. That'd have been the first thing I would have said!

Eric

I agree so much w/ what Eric is saying about the promotion of Days of Open Hand--it got even worse w/ 99.9FDegrees. Tour of Open Hand was a great tour--great set--great merchandise. I saw the VH-1toOne special they did and remember Suzanne saying they would be touring for at least a year and a half. My recollection is that that tour was cut short.

I remember reading an article about how and A & M exec. took Suzanne out to dinner one night--or something like this (don't be too mad if some of the facts are askew--it's been awhile since I read this)--and told her what a great artist and songwriter she is--she'll be making records 25 years from now--quality--all that crap--and after all this buttering up of Suzanne proceeds to tell her that they aren't spending anymore money on the promotion of the "Days..." album. She said she left the restaurant (sp? sorry) like she had just been complimented or something but proceeded to realize that she had just been F@#%$# over. This was around the time that Amy Grant released her first mainstream album and A & M promoted the heck out of it--videos galore. Now, I like Amy Grant--but....tell me--were any of those songs on the "Heart in Motion" album even in the same league as anything Suzanne has ever done? I think not!!!!!

The fact of the matter is that Eric is right: "Promotion = Sales" and A & M just refuses to promote Suzanne's music--Come on A & M!!! If I were Suzanne, I'd find a record label that will treat her the way she deserves to be treated!!!

Wendy!

Hey gang,

The following is a response from a friend of mine who can't seem to get on the Undertow list so I've been keeping him updated. This is his response to my comments on "Days..." yesterday:

Very well said. I must admit, I like 99.9F best of all. The interesting thing is (and I'm paying SV the highest compliment I can hear), my favorite thing of hers is always the most recent. Each album (I still call 'em albums--obviously showing my age, eh?), seems to be a huge progression, both musically and lyrically, from the the prior one. Given that I thought her first was superb, it certainly should illustrate the high regard in which I hold SV's music! Really, the only other popular artist I can think of that I feel much the same way about would be Joe Jackson, but even then, I remember being rather disappointed in a couple of his works. But, like SV, JJ is not interested in repeating formulas; rather it would appear that both of them enjoy the challenge of exploring new musical territories. Personally, I rather like that as it indicates to me that they don't take their audiences for granted; that SV (and JJ) want to challenge us as well. I find that wonderfully refreshing.

See ya!--Derek

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