Subject: "Lolita"

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Subj: Lolita and Honeymoon suite... Date: 96-11-15 18:52:35 EST From: janvier@videotron.ca (Guillaume lesage) Hi everybody, When I listen to Lolita, it makes me remember of another Suzanne song entitled Bad Wisdom. In these two songs, there is something strange hapening to a girl. Suzanne said that bad wisdom was about incest. Sometimes I think that Lolita is the same girl in bad Wisdom. Knowing things much too soon, feeling misunderstood by peers etc. And I think that those two songs are about a dark side of sexuality. I do not know wich, Suzanne is keeping the key too far away from me to understand. I cannot read between the lines, there is something missing and I can not put my finger on it. For Honeymoon Suite, I think there is nothing to bother about it. Suzanne is signing a kind of dream, Mitchel's one, and she says that she could not understand it. But there is a great musical texture in that song that reflect this strange tale. When your listening to it you do not feel very steady. It is the same feeling that I had when I first heard Institution Green and Those Whole Girls. I think there is nothing to understand in Honneymoon Suite. Suzanne relates the facts and I do not feel her to understand this strange situation either. Subj: Honeymoon with Lolita Date: 96-11-15 15:38:33 EST From: moeller@cis.ohio-state.edu (torsten moeller) Hi guys, Let me try to explain a little, what I mean, when I say, that her new album has no depth to it. Basically Ahren just summarized fairly nicely. Her new songs (esp. Honeymoon Suite, also Lolita) don't leave much room for interpretation, they don't let you 'in on it'. She just tells you a story and you can say, 'oh that's interesting' but you are not getting involved in it. Night Vision (probably my all time fav SV song) is just so full of imagery, metaphers, interpretations, history, it's amazing! I remember, that I was able to think days about that song and its meanings and reflections and how it relates to my own life. There was also a good discussion one or two years ago about that song on this list. Another good example is The Queen and the Soldier. Every few month there is a new discussion about this song on this list and how people relate to it. It is just so amazing to read all this! (And that's why I like this mailing list so much) But Honeymoon suite you can summarize in one sentence and that's it, there we go, you can't always understand your significant other. Over. Excuse me for being so harsh, it is simply boring! I also don't oppose repetetive songwriting, that's what Rock'n'Roll is all about, play the same 2, 3 chords over and over. She also proved, that she can come up with really great chord progressions (say catchy), but usually she puts more emphasis on the lyrics, if she doesn't so much on the music itself (e.g. World Before Columbus, Queen & Soldier) Lolita isn't that great of a song either, but a lot better, than Honeymoon suite. She is musically somewhat experimental and she uses some more metaphers here ('token of blood and tenderness'). That should be it for now ... Torsten. Subj: Re: Save Lolita and other Lolita postings Date: 96-11-15 03:12:14 EST From: Unique212@aol.com Hi gang, It's very interesting to see all these guys writing about their interpretations of the meaning of Lolita. How about some of us ladies joining into the fray just about now?!! After all, it's a song written by a woman to a girl. Several of you have speculated about the whole leaving-home-and-working-as-a-musician angle. I think the song is much more literal than that, and Suzanne has said that it was meant as advice to a girl about age 12 . Let me refresh your memory: many girls are almost fully grown at the age of 13 or so, and they live for a few years with the rather unusual situation of their bodies being much more advanced than their social skills and/or their outlook on life. All of a sudden everyone (including boys of the same age, who are often much shorter than the girls) starts treating them differently than before because they look mature even though they are not. To me the song "Lolita" is a reminder to a girl that there's a whole lifetime to be an adult, so instead of trying to rush things along she should remain a child for a while longer and not play adult games until she's capable of handling them. Someone (possibly Louis-Philippe?) said something about Suzanne leaving home at age 19 and starting to try to make a living as a musician. Well, in the United States it's very common for people to leave home at the age of 18 or 19, when they go to college, as did Suzanne. (For the non-Americans, undergraduate college in the USA is four years, usually from ages 17 or 18 to 21 or 22.) I think she started trying to perform in clubs even before then. But I don't think that's the real subject of the song at all. I'm fond of the song "Lolita," but I agree with those of you who say it's not the best tune on the album. At first the Santana stuff was a little jarring, but now I like it. It certainly is hypnotic, especially the synth work! U212 In a message dated 96-11-15 01:49:43 EST, you write: << : I assumed Lolita was sung from the perspective of an older Suzanne : looking back at her younger self and offering the advice she wished : she'd received. You know how sometimes you think "I'll look back on : this and laugh about it when i'm older". I just have a really strong : feeling that the narrator and "Lolita" are the same person. My guess is that you are right. I think the same thing. But thinking about it, maybe Suzanne is giving the young musicians of today, or everybody that would like to do as she did, the advice she wish she had received. Maybe somebody asked her about some advice on that kind of life. The only problem is that when you leave home, you don't want to go back. Everybody have their illusions about life... Louis-Philippe >> Subj: Re: Save Lolita and other Lolita postings Date: 96-11-15 11:34:32 EST From: friends@Mlink.NET (Louis-Philippe de l'Etoile) : Several of you have speculated about the whole :leaving-home-and-working-as-a-musician angle. I think the song is much :more literal than that, and Suzanne has said that it was meant as advice to a :girl about age 12 . She actually said that? Hmmm... Maybe then the song is about a youg girl (herself) dreams. You said it was about a girl trying to grow faster, and the advice was just to let things happen. I don't beleive that. "Don't be a dog all your life", "Don't look for affection", etc... Life is not that hard at 13 years old. Even if you try to be a grown up. : Someone (possibly Louis-Philippe?) said something about Suzanne leaving :home at age 19 and starting to try to make a living as a musician. Well, :in the United States it's very common for people to leave home at the age : of 18 or: 19, when they go to college, as did Suzanne. (For the non-Americans, : undergraduate college in the USA is four years, usually from ages 17 or :18 to 21 or 22.) I think she started trying to perform in clubs even before :then. But I don't think that's the real subject of the song at all. Why? She could have saved much trouble by staying home. We don't know for certain what Suzanne did at that age. (unless there's something I havn't read about). But your point is interesting. And I don't say mine is the right one. It's just what I think. (what I want to beleive?) : I'm fond of the song "Lolita," but I agree with those of you who say it's :not the best tune on the album. At first the Santana stuff was a little :jarring, but now I like it. It certainly is hypnotic, especially the synth work! I'm actually begining to like it too! Louis-Philippe Subj: My thoughts on Lolita Date: 96-11-15 01:48:50 EST From: friends@Mlink.NET (Louis-Philippe de l'Etoile) : Or maybe Lolita is just an excuse for Suzanne to tell us where she has :been standing. This is also what I think. She left home when she was 19. I think she started to play in music clubs after that. And this kind of life is surely hard work. So I'll go through the lyrics and try to give an explanation... "Lolita, Almost grown, Lolita, Go on home" Lolita would be a younger Suzanne Vega, just after she left home. Suzanne would now tell her to go back. Maybe because she had suffered for nothing. Maybe she could have skipped all that suffering by doing the same thing she did, but staying home. "Hey girl, Don't be a dog all your life, Don't beg for, Some little chumb of affection" Just what I said. Lolita would be living a dog's life, trying to catch things, to earn some money to live. This kind of life doesn't get you any kind of affection, so don't look for any. "Don't try, To be somebody's wife, So young, You need a word of protection" I do not know how long has been Suzanne's mariage until now, and I do not know if she had any boyfriend after she left how. Has she tried to get maried? Please help me on that one. "Hey girl, I've been where you are standing, Leaning in the doorway, In your mother's black dress" Another proof that Lolita is a young Suzanne Vega. Leaning in the doorway would probably mean that Lolita is stepping out to her new life, just like Suzanne, when she left home. The black dress is a way of saying that the older life is now dead, the older life represented by the mother. (protection, affection) "So hungry, For the one understanding, Looking for a token of, Blood or tenderness" Hungry and looking for tenderness. Hard life. Just repeating what was said earlier. "Lolita..." Pleading for one last time. Change your life. It could be easier. Louis-Philippe From: Mr David Lowrie (D.Lowrie@BoM.GOV.AU) Subj: Re: Save Lolita Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 14:32:09 DST Hi Simon - you are perfectly right about Lolita If you read Suzanne's song-by-song "Net-interview" at the Vega-Web site she talks about this very thing. It's weird - I heard a reviewer talk about this song as being about a "woman of the street" - (dear me) - just shows how "open" some peoples interpretations are! The song is about being "on the brink" of (I guess) sexual awakening - wearing her mothers black dress I interpret as a reference to a young girl literally putting on the clothes of an adult - longing for all of the things she see's she needs to be "grown up" It's a song about the age old classic "voyage from inocence to experience" I see all this as Suzanne thinking (somewhat sentimentally or wistfully) "I wish I could warn this eager person to be wary of the stormy waters" Suzanne has said she "is" Lolita - or that at least the song is "to the Lolita in her" It reminds me (sort of) of a young girl pondering at her face in the reflected waters - or an older woman looking at her own reflection in the mirror and seeing the young girl she was - and could have been if she'd had the benefit of foreknowledge those waters of reflection are pretty deep! - and so is our Suzanne I reckon judging by the lyrics :) cheers David Subject:Save Lolita From: David Algranti (algranti@club-internet.fr) Subj: Save Lolita Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 01:09:25 +0100 (MET) Rob wrote: >If you want an example of a weak track, may I submit "Lolita"? I thought >the way the narrator gave the advice ("Hey girl/ don't be a dog all your >life") actually weakened the message - the opposite effect of what was >intended, I'm sure. The 'Santana-like' accompaniment doesn't help. The >portrait of the girl in "Lolita" pales before other examples such as >"Neighborhood Girls" or even "Straight Lines." Or maybe I just prefer >the 'observational' approach that these earlier songs take. It seems most people don't like this track. Well actually it's far from being my favorite neither, but I felt like somebody had to defend that song, so I took the booklet and read the lyrics again and again.... and they are definitely weak! but I don't want to believe that, so maybe we should discuss that song and try to find good things out of it. So please help! One thing we shouldn't forget is that Lolita is supposed to be an object of desire, so this song has to be more than just a piece of advice. First what I'd like to know is where the line "I've been where you are standing" is ending. I mean is that "I" or lolita who is "leaning...", "in your mother's...", "so hungry... tenderness". I mean maybe there's something very pathetic in that song, maybe "I" is kind hypocrit and wants to turn Lolita away from men or whatever so this "I" (Suzanne said it was herself so why do I bother?) can keep Lolita by her side, for company... or whatever. Or maybe Lolita is just an excuse for Suzanne to tell us where she has been standing. Come on, why don't we all elaborate our crazy theories like we did for Bad Wisdom or Blood Makes Noise? Let's find all sort of cool meanings to that song even if they're not true. Like I like to say and it could apply to that song: OK it's not deep, but only on the surface (no no, it doesn't mean anything). David. Subj: Re: Save Lolita Date: 96-11-15 10:54:43 EST From: bobking@gate.net (Robert King) On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, David Algranti wrote: > Come on, why don't we all elaborate our crazy theories like we did for Bad > Wisdom or Blood Makes Noise? Let's find all sort of cool meanings to that > song even if they're not true. OK: Lolita Persephone Henderson was an 11-year-old girl whom police found dazed and bloodied outside the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963. She was from Groom, Texas, but had skipped school and hopped the rails in her mother's black cocktail dress a week earlier for a chance to see President John F. Kennedy. On arriving in Dallas that morning she was approached in a Rexall's drug store by a shy, balding young man who called himself "Lee." He bought her a root beer float at a local diner (called Tom's), where he seemed nice at first but soon began to scare her with his ravings about "the Cubans" and "the Company" and "they're setting me up to be a patsy but no way, I'll show them, they can't fool me." (She thought he was talking about Patsy Cline.) Lolita asked Lee if he planned to see the president; he just smiled cryptically and glanced at his watch. The low point of the morning came as Lee became more and more agitated, finally grasping her by the back of her hair and forcing her to crawl on all fours around the diner barking like a dog. Terrified, Lolita ran from the diner, but Lee caught up with her after she collided with a woman straightening her stockings in the doorway. Lee escorted her to the book depository, muttering, "I can't screw this up or Ruby's going to whack me." "Ruby?" Lolita asked. "That's a pretty name for a girl." Lee just smirked. Lolita's other footnote in history came when she died this past summer aboard that TWA jet that exploded out of New York. Coincidence? I think not. Anyway, that's what I think "Lolita" is about. -- Bob Subj: Re: Save Lolita Date: 96-11-16 05:48:15 EST From: Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se (Hugo Westerlund) Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu (Undertow) At 14:32 15.11.96 DST, David Lowrie wrote: >It's a song about the age old classic "voyage from inocence to experience" Indeed. "My mother groaned! my father wept. Into the dangerous world I lept: Helpless, naked, piping loud: Like a fiend hid in a cloud. "Struggling in my father's hands: Striving against swadling bands: Bound and weary I thought best To sulk upon my mother's breast." (William Blake: Infant Sorrow) There's an interesting parallell between Lolita and As a Child, I think: "Hey girl I've been where you are standing Leaning in the doorway In your mother's black dress" and: "Hand on the doorknob Feel like a thing One foot on the sidewalk Too much to prove" If you want to carry the "leaving home" analogy further, you can also compare it with a song called First Day Out that Suzanne wrote when she was fifteen, probabaly reflecting a true experience: "Here I am at last, I've just jumped off the train I'm about to start my life as a wanderer in the rain I know so many people would give anything to be in my shoes Well, that's all right for them to say, but my shoes are soaked right through. "I don't know what made me want to come all the way out here I guess when I was dreaming, my skies were always clear Now I'm here in a meadow with the rain streaming through my hair I guess this is what you call traveling freely, living without care. "Here I am, all by myself, and I'll admit I'm scared All I've got is my guitar and a couple of dollars to spare And I know even that's not gonna last me long. "I suppose I could pick myself up and carry myself back home But after what I put my folks through, I think I better stay alone. Anyhow, five years of aching are packed behind this plan Since I was ten, I've wanted to get out of the city and live out on the land. "My parents thought I was crazy and I think now maybe they're right But I can still feel the freedom in following the eagle's flight. I just had to come and see what all the songs were about My hope is returning quickly and I don't think there's any doubt "That I'd better start moving if I want to get somewhere I'll go on to the next town and see what I find there And stay a while until I go traveling on." But, to me, it's about an even wider issue -- the question of learning to have a life, just like Caspar Hauser, Victor "The Wild Child" or Genie -- or just like anyone of us -- without having to "pay for [your] life with [your] body": "I came out of the darkness Holding one thing A small white wooden horse I'd been holdning inside" In the English music paper Sound, 6 December 1986, Suzanne says about Wooden Horse (Caspar Hauser's Song): "I was reading the biograohy of Kaspar Hauser. He lived in Germany in the 1800s and because he was [said to be] the heir to the throne [of Bavaria], he had been locked in a basement from the time he was born until he was 17 and then suddenly set free. So his problem was, how do you learn to be a human being? The book explains his coming to power and it's a really tragic story because he's murdered in the end, but I thought his perspective would have been so interesting. "It's that stripped away thing again. In some ways he was so stripped away, he was almost like an animal. He'd never seen the sun and he could only say one sentence, which was I want to be a rider, like my father. And they had given him one toy to play with the whole 17 years, which was a small wooden horse. So I was trying to see how you could take a story like that and turn it into a song." About her own experiences when she learned that the man she'd though of as her father, the Puerto Rican writer Ed Vega, was not her real father, and that she was not at all Puerto Rican -- an identity that had meant a lot to her, Suzanne says: "Suddenly I felt that everything I had known was kind of stripped away, which is a feeling I've had often and I think that's probably had a lot of effect on my songwriting. Because every time I look at someone I think, You could strip everything away. You could strip away their name, you could strip away their beliefs, strip away who they think they are and you'd still have a person there you have to address. "So when I write, that's the part of the person I'm aiming for -- the part that's stripped away." This experience is the very background to Freezing, the song on Philipp Glass' album Songs from Liquid Days, which to me is not incomprehensible at all, as some earlier poster wrote. To me, this perspective is like the key to Suzanne's work. She touches the very basis of human experience in a way very few people are able to do. Many people describe the strange attraction Genie, the thirteen year old girl who was found in 1970 after having been confined to a potty chair for all her life, had on everyone. I think this is because in her, we see that stripped away part of ourselves, just like we do in Suzanne's songs. And this part is the most important part of us, the part that nothing, not even the worst environment imaginable could take away. Call it the Self, the Buddha Nature or the Divine Spark. It tells us whence we come and whither we are going. What we essentially are. Suzanne is also talking about the part of the person that need so be held, needs to be nurtured -- to be loved -- to be able to grow into a real living person in the world. And if there isn't enough love and warmth, you will either have to protect yourself by creating a hard crust, perhaps even by renouncing the world and your own needs, like in anorexia -- or perish altogether. "If you had no name If you had no history If you had no books If you had no family "If it were only you Naked on the grass Who would you be then? This is what he asked And I said I wasn't really sure But I would probably be Cold "And now I'm freezing Freezing" (It's interesting to note, I think, that anorexics, while mastering their drive to eat, are almost constantly freezing [for biological reasons, to be sure, but I also see a symbolic significance to it]. Genie and Victor, and perhaps also Kaspar, who were even more stripped away, had even developed a strange insensitivity to cold.) By speaking to this stripped away thing, Suzanne gives a new sense of importance to the inner world, makes it real in the form of a song, and so finally the tale can begin, croaking and sighing at first. And maybe, if there's someone to hear your small story, you won't have to pay for your life with your body anymore. Later, /Hugo Subj: Re: Save Lolita Date: 96-11-16 12:04:35 EST From: wchapman@mizar.usc.edu (Wendy Chapman) On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Simon Knight wrote: > I assumed Lolita was sung from the perspective of an older Suzanne > looking back at her younger self and offering the advice she wished > she'd received. You know how sometimes you think "I'll look back on > this and laugh about it when i'm older". I just have a really strong > feeling that the narrator and "Lolita" are the same person. Do you think perhaps it is based on the character Lolita? Wendy!