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Subj: men in a war Date: 97-01-09 10:12:17 EST From: JJENIK@aol.com in bruce's very careful and quite excellent selection of suzanne's songs, he triggered an interpretation i had regarding men in a war. i've read often, and believe that this song is mainly about posttraumatic stress, particularly that of participants in war. but the last stanza (and she lay on her back/she made sure she was hid/ ...) to me, has always been a woman giving birth/having an abortion or prostituting herself. another form of posttraumatic stress, I guess. Has anyone else had this interpretation? thanks. --jocelyn Subj: RE: men in a war Date: 97-01-09 12:27:40 EST From: keith.sawyer@FMR.Com (Sawyer, Keith) JJENIK@aol.com asks: < another form of posttraumatic stress, I guess. Has anyone else had this interpretation?>> Not exactly, but close! I've never seen this as an anti-war song or even a study of those injured/affected by war. I always thought the "men in a war/if they've lost a limb" beginning was an analogy, or a set up. When we see someone who's lost a limb, often the reaction is 'that's so sad ... but he has to get on with his life.' For me, the song uses this frame to help us think differently about ways we have be injured, emotionally more than physically (though a physical act could lead to this emotional trauma). We have lost things as well ("a piece of your eyesight/or maybe your vision"), but our natural defenses cope for this loss ("A piece of the scan/gets filled in by hand") and we should continue on without regret ("so you just make do with/whatever you've got") ... otherwise we will stagnate and perhaps deteriorate ("you don't feel your will/you can't find your gut"). I've personally always found this song quite inspiring for its strong anti-regret stance. keith "As if I were the first one to watch her undress, As if I were the first to hear her cry and confess" -Long River Train, 'The First' Subj: Re: men in a war further thoughts Date: 97-01-10 11:50:40 EST From: 9348145@lewis.sms.ed.ac.uk (David T.Traynor) In response to jocelyn's thoughts on Men in a War.... Those lines in Men in aWar have jumped out at me before but I had always thought of them (without deliberately drifting into potentially delicate areas) as a very succinct description of masturbation. 'she made sure she was hid'- since no-one wants to get caught masturbating, 'not feeling the thing that she did '- you're usually pretending/wishing that it was someone else doing it so she wasn't feeling that SHE did it. Having said that, in a live recording I heard of the song; Suzanne introduces it as a song about violence and someone in the audince suggested that it's also about sex and replied snappily that it isn't so maybe I'm wrong. But I always thought that this fits in well with the rest of the song's talk of disjointedness and 'a piece of the scan getting filled in'; so we make up for ourselves what isn't there when we want it to be. I hope I used enough words there to show that I wasn't automatically reducing everything to sex :-) David Traynor Subj: Re: men in a war further thoughts Date: 97-01-10 16:05:36 EST From: guida@mail.telepac.pt (Guida Fonseca) At 04:31 PM 10/01/97 +0000, D.T.T (it could be DDT) wrote: >Those lines in Men in aWar have jumped out at me before but I had >always thought of them (without deliberately drifting into potentially >delicate areas) as a very succinct description of masturbation. >'she made sure she was hid'- since no-one wants to get caught >masturbating, > 'not feeling the thing that she did '- you're usually >pretending/wishing that it was someone else doing it so she >wasn't feeling that SHE did it. Excuse me ?????????????????????????????????????? Oh boy... Is this some kind of joke ?? One of these days I was taking a look at what Undertow was about "since the beginning" - at least before August ... and I found some weird things like about a Suzanne song that "could possibily" be connected to pedophilia..... I wonder how one can connect any of Suzanne's song with it ! >I hope I used enough words there to show that I wasn't automatically >reducing everything to sex :-) Oh Yeah... I'd never dream of it, definitely ! I was thinking how to introduce the subject "sex" on Suzanne songs but now I began to have second thoughts about it... Guida. Subj: Re: men in a war further thoughts Date: 97-01-10 20:20:54 EST From: georgeb@algonet.se (George Barota) >In response to jocelyn's thoughts on Men in a War.... > >Those lines in Men in aWar have jumped out at me before but I had >always thought of them (without deliberately drifting into potentially >delicate areas) as a very succinct description of masturbation. >'she made sure she was hid'- since no-one wants to get caught >masturbating, > 'not feeling the thing that she did '- you're usually >pretending/wishing that it was someone else doing it so she >wasn't feeling that SHE did it. Well I'm sure it's possible to make that interpretation too, but the real meaning of the song is so clear that it just can't be missed. Unlike the case with most of the other songs on that album. Men in a war If they've lost a limb Still feel that limb As they did before I know how it is When something is gone If your nerve is cut If you're kept on the stretch You don't feel you will You can't find your gut The song is about losing things (anything) that are important to you. The losses in the song are only physical. But they are used as a metaphor for all kinds of losses. The interesting thing is that each of the persons in the song seems to still have what the other doesn't. A little bit of irony. George B Subj: two thoughts Date: 97-01-11 23:54:07 EST From: wchase@silcom.com (Will Keightley) Hello, folks... Just a couple thoughts on some recent threads in our electronic "tapestry": Funny thing, I guess I never really knew what the lyric really was in "Men in a War" until now. I allus thought the line went, She lay on her back She was sure she was _hit_ She was mute and staring Not feeling _a_ thing... It made sense to me; I was caught up in the war metaphor. Often when one is severely wounded, it takes a while for the realization to sink in--sort of an immediate, short-lived denial that one's been shot, or stabbed, or maimed. Sometimes this denial can take on physiological dimensions, or settle back and encouch itself in the psyche. I imagined the emotional wound caused by the end of a relationship. The shock, the numbness, the lingering sensations of emotion emanating from a love that is now gone. But that was then. Now, as I read the lyrics I feel somewhat foolish. My new impression is that the last verse has something to do with...abortion perhaps? I find the masturbation idea intriguing as well, merely because sometimes it's the wackiest interpretations that ring the truest for me. I liked my old interpretation. It made the song extra dynamic for me. Strange what a presumptuous ear and six years of laziness will do to one's perceptions! I think I'll still sing it my way (at top volume in my car, idling at stop lights under the curious gazes of drivers around me) also... Chris Gerby posted his tracklist for his SV tape. I thought that was interesting. I happen to be extremely precise when I make audio tapes. There are only certain songs which work as "final cuts" on a compilation tape. I have to say that regardless of the previous 85 minutes you've got assembled, Chris, your choice of "Pilgrimage" as the final track is right on the money. Of all of her songs, it's got the most graceful build and the most nerve-tingling finish. It's the best way to round out any SV session--my choice for final encore in every live performance. The whole "Days" album is perfect, easily my favorite of the whole discography (and I discovered them in chronological order!), but "Pilgrimage" especially so. That's all I wanted to say this time. Some day I'll tell you a story about "Small Blue Thing" William. Subj: Re: men in a war further thoughts Date: 97-01-12 18:40:29 EST From: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti) >One of these days I was taking a look at what Undertow was about "since the >beigining" - at least before August ... and I found some weird things like >about a Suzanne song that "could possibily" be connected to pedophilia..... > >I wonder how one can connect any of Suzanne's song with it ! Well sorry Guida, but incest IS pedophilia and Suzanne recently made it clear that she wrote Bad Wisdom thinking about incest. Subj: Re: men in a war further thoughts Date: 97-01-13 06:09:55 EST From: guida.tinta@taguspark.pt (Guida Fonseca) David A. wrote : >Well sorry Guida, but incest IS pedophilia and Suzanne recently made it clear >that she wrote Bad Wisdom thinking about incest. Well, I don't want any miss understandings ! Pedophilia and Incest are two different words with obviously two different meanings. Sorry but as I learned it Incest ISN'T pedophilia. There's a big range of incestous relationships, in fact if I flirted or fell in love with a close family member, that would be incest. It can be a relation that both two people agree with, and it can be a relationship that one is "forced to accept" it ! Because most of the times, and I should say, unfortunately a LOt of them, the mother goes along with the "father's game".Because they are still family it's not an easy thing to deal with. And I think that this was what Suzanne was meaning. Pedophilia as you might know is when loony/freak grownups want to have sex or abuse sexually (sexually molest) children. Does the word Belgium ring a bell for you ??? The children were sexually abused and then killed. And they were NOT family ! And the situation is completly different. Because you can frame a freak or prevert that stoled your child away, but if this happens among the family most of the times the mothers don't want to call the Police 'cause they know that her husband is going to beat her ! So you kind of have to live with it. I happen to know something similar two streets below where I live. So..... it's not the same thing ! Guida.