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Subj: Physical Perceptions. Date: 96-12-02 14:37:38 EST From: albert@teracorp.com (Albert J. Horst) In response to Hugo's last posting, I feel compelled to share my perspective about physical perceptions. So what's wrong with being a cute female? Appearing meek and fragile? Knowing that you don't instill fear in others? Are these not valuable attributes? As a men struggling to escape the ugliness of his own gender, I cannot understand Suzanne's reasoning to conceal, or dismiss the value of her own aspect. Yes, there's the potential of being victimized, but does that compare at all to the image of being a monster in the eyes of a child? If such an image is necessary to survive in today's world, then we will surly victimize ourselves through our own self-consciousness. Albert. Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions. Date: 96-12-2 18:13:21 EST From: rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com (Rob Walters) Hello everyone, Albert wrote: >So what's wrong with being a cute female? Appearing meek and >fragile? Knowing that you don't instill fear in others? Are >these not valuable attributes? As a men struggling to escape >the ugliness of his own gender, I cannot understand Suzanne's >reasoning to conceal, or dismiss the value of her own aspect. Whoa there - hold everything. I don't think SV was trying to "conceal" or "dismiss" the value of women or those of slight stature. Her remark referred to the way she felt inside. As to the "meek and fragile" part, I don't think anyone said anything was wrong with that, but I'm sure she didn't enjoy living with asthma, which limited her potential dance career, forced her to stick to short phrases, etc. She's said that she used to push herself to walk long distances, just because she was so frustrated with not being able to do what she wanted to do. I'm not sure what you mean by the "ugliness" of the male gender, either. >Yes, there's the potential of being victimized, but does that >compare at all to the image of being a monster in the eyes of >a child? If such an image is necessary to survive in today's >world, then we will surly victimize ourselves through our own >self-consciousness. I don't know what you meant to say here, but adopting a "tough" image was Suzanne's way of surviving, defending herself and her siblings, and overcoming her circumstances while growing up. And she did make *one* comment about the way she felt inside vs. the waif-like perception of her from the outside. Let's not blow things out of proportion. If I were Suzanne, and reading comments like these, I'd probably regret ever having said *anything*! ;) Just returning from Thanksgiving to a slew of Undertow mail, -Rob Subj: RE: men Vs women Date: 96-12-03 10:09:24 EST From: Keith.Sawyer@FMR.Com (Sawyer, Keith) Louis-Philippe de l'Etoile writes: >I've been wondering recently of how I like Suzanne Vega if she were a man. >I know it sound stupid, but let me finish. I realised that if she were >ideed a man, I would surely still like her, but not like I do now. I am a >man, attracted to woman. Suzanne is beautifull and have a presence when on >a stage that can entangle any man around. I listen to a woman's voice >singing great songs. But if she were a man, the spell wouldn't be as >powerfull. This is a very interesting matter of personal taste. I know I personally find female voices more pleasing to listen to than male voices. Someone like Liz Fraser of the Cocteau Twins can entrance me with her voice ... I don't need any pretense of songwriting to enjoy her amazing vocal atmosphere. I appreciate the talent of many male vocalists as well, but seem to place more emphasis on the songwriting when I listen to them - vocal talent alone is not enough. Perhaps that's why I enjoy Suzanne's work so much ... I get the immediate pleasure from her vocal presence, plus the intricate songwriting that I enjoy wrestling with so much. >I was litteraly spellbound during the show. And I doubt a man could have >done that on me. I probably would have agreed with this before I attended most captivating show I've ever witnessed - by Mark Eitzel/American Music Club. He was so emotionally involved with performing the songs that it added a whole new sense of urgency and desperation to his work. I really felt for him up there... keith "You can be a hero, all you have to know is what to say" -Blue Clocks Green, 'Hemingway' Subj: physical perceptions Date: 96-12-03 10:11:45 EST From: JJENIK@aol.com i'm not sure that Suzanne resented being seen as a woman especially; i think the problem lies in being stereotyped and pigeonholed into a particular genre based on her physicial appearance, while her songs certainly have deeper meanings and can most definitely not be classified as wistful love songs. our need, as americans, to label people and things so that they fit into neat packages in our minds causes lots of trouble for people who want to be seen as they *are* in total, which includes taking words and music and physical attitudes into consideration. it just takes more time. i always thought the black stuff in 50/50 chance was either blood or something dark or evil that had been purged. yeah, the violin sounds like an ambulance. and the meter of the song reminds me of a clock ticking away time. --jocelyn Subj: Re: Physical perceptions, masculinity etc. Date: 96-12-03 10:40:29 EST From: Bruce_Miyashita@mckinsey.com (Bruce Miyashita) Greetings: In the article "On Masculinity" Suzanne wrote for Esquire magazine (Oct '91 and found on the Vega website) Suzanne wrote (assuming the editors did not distort her original essay) that she wanted to become a "psychic soldier, one who would resist and endure: honest, straightforward, courageous." I don't think she was neither rejecting femininity nor saying that males were superior. I think she was making the assertion, that I whole-heartedly agree with, that given her situation in life at the time she admired these traits but that these so-called "masculine" traits are not synonomous with just males, but are traits from which men and women both draw upon. P.S. Personally, I think this discussion list is great because you often don't know the sex of the writer and rarely, unless offered by the writer, know what any of us looks like. It reminds me of a science fiction book by Ursula K. LeGuin called, I think, "The Left Hand of Darkness", that described a world where the people are neuters, that is neither male nor female, for most of the time. But when it came time to procreate, individuals would change, *randomly*, into either male or female! Thus everyone, during their lifetime, would probably spend some time pregnant and going through the experience of childbirth. P.P.S. Suzanne's "psychic soldier" phrase brings to mind a Leonard Cohen song I love called "The Partisan," which takes the perspective of a resistance soldier who "must go on" despite losing many of his/her comrades in the struggle. Interestingly, the lyrics are such that a man or a woman can sing this song. Throughout it there is the strong evocation of struggle, of persisting against terrible odds, of loyalty to comrades and to an ideal, of fighting your own inner doubts and fears, something that I hear in the Esquire essay, in songs like "Marlene on the Wall" ("the only soldier now is me/I'm fighting things I cannot see"), and in Suzanne's personal story. Subj: [Fwd: Re: men Vs women] Date: 96-12-04 04:51:53 EST From: tjohnson@suburbia.net (T Johnson) I am a woman, and I am totally entranced by Suzanne, and have been ever since the first time I heard Marlene (which was the first song of hers i ever heard..) I saw her live when she was here in Australia in 1993, and was spellbound for the whole show...and no, i don't believe that the songs *would* be as powerful if a man sang them...the only male that has an even *close* effect on me is (and don't laugh now) Marti Pellow from WET WET WET when he sings certain songs...(not so much content of the song either, but his voice and the notes he hits) I do find Suzanne to be attractive even though i am a heterosexual woman...I believe it is my feeling of connection with her that sparks this....well..that's all i have to say on that subject! :) Tracey:) ps when is Suzanne coming back *Down Under*???? Sawyer, Keith wrote: > > Louis-Philippe de l'Etoile writes: > > >I've been wondering recently of how I like Suzanne Vega if she were a man. > >I know it sound stupid, but let me finish. I realised that if she were > >ideed a man, I would surely still like her, but not like I do now. I am a > >man, attracted to woman. Suzanne is beautifull and have a presence when on > >a stage that can entangle any man around. I listen to a woman's voice > >singing great songs. But if she were a man, the spell wouldn't be as > >powerfull. > > This is a very interesting matter of personal taste. I know I personally > find female voices more pleasing to listen to than male voices. Someone > like Liz Fraser of the Cocteau Twins can entrance me with her voice ... I > don't need any pretense of songwriting to enjoy her amazing vocal > atmosphere. I appreciate the talent of many male vocalists as well, but > seem to place more emphasis on the songwriting when I listen to them - vocal > talent alone is not enough. Perhaps that's why I enjoy Suzanne's work so > much ... I get the immediate pleasure from her vocal presence, plus the > intricate songwriting that I enjoy wrestling with so much. > > >I was litteraly spellbound during the show. And I doubt a man could have > >done that on me. > > I probably would have agreed with this before I attended most captivating > show I've ever witnessed - by Mark Eitzel/American Music Club. He was so > emotionally involved with performing the songs that it added a whole new > sense of urgency and desperation to his work. I really felt for him up > there... > > keith Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions. Date: 96-12-04 11:35:37 EST From: Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se (Hugo Westerlund) At 13:35 2.12.96 -0500, Albert wrote: >So what's wrong with being a cute female? Appearing meek and >fragile? Knowing that you don't instill fear in others? Are >these not valuable attributes? As a men struggling to escape >the ugliness of his own gender, I cannot understand Suzanne's >reasoning to conceal, or dismiss the value of her own aspect. As you're probably aware yourself, Albert, your looks can sometimes make people get impressions of you that are far from what you're like inside and then you're bound to feel misrepresented. Then you might want to change your aspect. Although the grass isn't always greener on the other side, the question of image is an important one, not matter if we like it or not. People seldom see the inside, they look at the outside of a person. As for being cute, it's not an uncomplicated thing. Often, I think, cuteness is nicer for the person looking than for the person being looked at. I'm not particularly cute myself, these days, but as a baby I guess I was kind of cute, as most babies are. To me, it was horrible. All these grown up people petting me in their condescending ways. I hated it. I hated being a child. It was so humiliating. I desperately wanted to grow up, even to be old and infirm -- then I though I'd be appreciated for my real qualities. Cuteness serves a biological function. It elicits protective bahaviour. The mother protects her child, the male protects the female. But in this protective stance, there's an attitude of being above, of being stronger, wiser or whatever. And when you're actually quite capable yourself, it may be a very unpleasant experience to be seen as cute, meek and fragile. That is not to say that I don't appreciate cute girls myself. I certainly do. But I struggle with myself not to express my love in a condenscending way. It's not an easy thing though -- love as I've know it as a child is cendenscending. Or at least that's the way I felt. I'm not sure if Suzanne would agree with this analysis. When you're personally touched, as I am in this matter, you tend to project your own feeling on others. But at least this is *one* reason why you might resent being called a cute waif. Actually, as much as I appreciate Suzanne's "cuteness", I appreciate her way of preserving her dignity. I like women who defend their right to their own perspective. I find it very attractive indeed. And by doing that, they also help me in defending my right to my own perspective. Later, /Hugo Subj: Re: physical perceptions / 50-50 chance Date: 96-12-04 18:14:50 EST From: guida@mail.telepac.pt (Guida Fonseca) Hello fellow Undertowers ! I read the physical perceptions posts and, I must confess that I was expecting that the "female wing" jumped into it in a more enthusiastic way ! I guess that boys don't have to go through this kind of feelings, at least as the same way girls have to deal with it. After all, let's not forget "This is a men's world". -- Changing slowly, I admit -- BEWARE guys !!! ;) So, I'm thowing my 5 nickels: To me, it's not so much a question of being cute or not being cute, or attractive for this matter. I think that is a question of 'how' people see and appreciate your work, and by this I truly mean, if people appreciate your work due to its quality or to how the people looks like. Girls ! How many time did you go to a simple job interview and you have your friends (male or female) saying "Hey, why don't you try that skirt, or that high heel pair of shoes." ? It's a shame that our society is based on this kind of schemes and judge people on things like this ! So, one of the main reasons that I admire Suzanne is how she "survived" (don't have a better word)in this particular artistic world, wich I think it's even thougher ! I presume that who ever likes Suzanne music, likes in first place for its credits, because it's good music, good poetry and her lovely way of showing/singing common things, and not because Suzanne's beautiful blue eyes, for instance. In one sentence- It's real hard to break through when you're good, and that's THE only thing that you want to count. In 50-50 chance, the violins make me remind of that line "Her little heart/it beats so fast/Her body trembles/With the effort to last". I always associated them to heartbeating ! Fast heartbeating... Guida. Subj: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-04 18:51:31 EST From: albert@teracorp.com (Albert J. Horst) The intent of my posting about physical perceptions was to share my perspective and not to dispute Suzanne's feelings, which I'm sure are very real to her. Since my perspective is the direct opposite of hers, it is only natural that I would be puzzled. I was hoping to point out this perspective without bleeding all over the page about what life is like when you're trapped in the body of a monster! Obviously, my attempt at abstract writing led to several misconceptions. I am sorry if my comment about being ashamed to be a member of the male gender offended anyone. I was referring to the images that induce the mistrust that is so prevalent in our society today. When more than 95 percent of all criminals are men, one can easily see how such images arise. The fact that the media feeds on it is no big help either. Women, however, are generally viewed as innocent and caring. And having features like Suzanne Vega or Audrey Hepburn only amplify that perception further. Maybe I am unrealistic in my thinking, but I simply can not imagine either one of these two women ever scaring a little child. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if I'm going to be misjudged, I'd rather people think I was weak, then think I'm a monster. Albert. From: Louis-Phillippe de L'Etoile Subj: Re: physical perceptions / 50-50 chance Date: 96-12-04 23:37:45 EST : To me, it's not so much a question of being cute or not being cute, or : attractive for this matter. : I think that is a question of 'how' people see and appreciate your work, and : by this I truly mean, if people appreciate your work due to its quality or : to how the people looks like. I'm constantly thinking about this. All that you said is perfectly right. But that one question still won't go out of my head. What if Suzanne Vega was a man? I didn't have any direct answer about that. The fact that I'm a heterosexual man would surely influence my judgement on how I like a singer. On the other hand, I'm sure that after a certain time the significance of the songs, the music, the quality, etc, completly negates the fact that she is a girl. But does that feeling stays in the back of your head, talking silently while you listen your CDs? : Girls ! How many time did you go to a simple job interview and you have your : friends (male or female) saying "Hey, why don't you try that skirt, or that : high heel pair of shoes." ? : It's a shame that our society is based on this kind of schemes and judge : people on things like this ! It's a shame but it's a fact. We have eyes to see and judge, even if we don't want to. I once experience meeting some people in the dark. I couldn't see a thing. We talked for half an hour and you can't imagine how beautifull somebody can be when you can only look on the inside. There is a french expression that says: "Look with the eyes of your heart". I've truly know what it is to really "know" sombody. : I presume that who ever likes Suzanne music, likes in first place for its : credits, because it's good music, good poetry and her lovely way of : showing/singing common things, and not because Suzanne's beautiful blue : eyes, for instance. Yes, but to what degree? Can you love someone more because she's a girl? (or man...) I don't know if that goes away with age. I am still young (19) and I'm just starting to discover life and it's thousand questions. Louis-Philippe From: lwidmer@u.washington.edu (L. Widmer) Subj: Physical Perceptions Date: 1996 -12 - 5 Hi there! Regarding the whole physical perceptions thing, in the music world, for me at least, how someone looks is not so important because I hear much more of the artist's music than I ever actually see the person. Think about CD booklets; the photos in them are not very big. Sometimes it's difficult for me to even get an idea of what a person really looks like. Take as an example Sarah McLachlan whose music I've been getting more into lately. From looking at her photos on various CDs, I really have no idea of what she looks like. I'm pretty sure I would not recognize her if I passed her on the street. But I really connect with her music. I also do not ever watch music videos. For me, the first thing about a musician that attracts me is the music itself, usually the singer's voice and the way words are enunciated and how the music is arranged. At some point I usually see a photo of the person whose music I like, but the music always takes precedence for me. This is not to say that whether the artist/singer is male or female is of no consequence. I tend to like female singer/songwriters more than male s/s and I also tend to connect more emotionally with female artists. But it doesn't have much to do with the way the person looks. Why is this? I don't know. It could be because I'm a woman, but a lot of men I know feel the same way. Is it a question of sexuality?, ie, we are drawn towards artists who we are also sexually attracted to? Maybe on some level, but as this list can attest to, we all love SV and there are plenty of straight women and gay men who love Suzy! It's an interesting question though. I believe that it's the music more than anything else, the whole auditory package, that brings us all together. Lory Subj: Physical perception and attraction! Date: 96-12-05 17:11:22 EST From: janvier@videotron.ca (Guillaume lesage) Hi everybody! Lory wrote: "Maybe on some level, but as this list can attest to, we all love SV and there are plenty of straight women and gay men who love Suzy!" Well, I really agree with this. But, I have to say that, for me , Suzanne is the perfect exemple of feminity and I always saw her like this. Even when she was considered as an old nerd singer. There is something when she is signing that take alle my attention. But you know, Suzanne may look like a little, fragile girl, I'm sure she have a lot of temper. I think you must have temper to do this kind of work and I'm also thinking of this Fighting article I read on the Website. So that what I really like, she a woman, in a man's world , she may seem little and fragile, but we still can hear her voice today. But I must admit that event if I'm gay, the image of Suzanne that we see by the media, tv, papers etc. is really attracting to me. Maybe Suzanne could heal me from my homosexuality! (just a joke! Would not like to be hetero, There are too many beautiful boys!) :-) Guillaume Lesage The gay fatman. Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-05 18:41:24 EST From: Unique212@aol.com Hi gang, Albert said, on the topic of physical perceptions: << I am sorry if my comment about being ashamed to be a member of the male gender offended anyone. I was referring to the images that induce the mistrust that is so prevalent in our society today. When more than 95 percent of all criminals are men, one can easily see how such images arise. The fact that the media feeds on it is no big help either. >> I sincerely doubt that ANYONE can seriously think that half of the human race consists of monsters!! Please don't think of yourself as a monster by definition -- one is only a monster if one does monstrous things. And the vast majority of people, both men and women, are perfectly capably of living in a semblance of civility. <> True, but don't you think that it can be a little wearying to be continually judged by one's appearance and having people behave a certain way because of their perceptions of you as this sort of fragile, 'not-of-this-earth' creature? If one does look somewhat fragile, one can have a very tough spirit -- indeed, it may be essential to survival. SV is a great example of this, having thrived for more than ten years in the cutthroat music industry. Conversely, what if a man looks like a huge football player and yet has the spirit of a gentle poet and absolutely no interest in sports? The world at large will still assume he is a football player. [I remember hearing a radio interview from 1992 or so in which SV said something to the effect that Sinead O'Connor really uses her vulnerability to her advantage, and that a lot of what O'Connor does would not work if she was a fat girl with stringy hair and bad skin.] Lately I'm coming to the conclusion that it is almost impossible to tell anything about anyone judging solely by appearance. (It only took me 30 years or so to figure this out!) For instance, a friend of mine is having a very difficult time emotionally at the moment, but to look at her you couldn't tell -- she seems as happy as ever. I also know slender people who are convinced they are fat (as another friend of mine says, don't you just want to hurt skinny people who complain about their weight?!!), and fat people who think they are petite and wear clothes that are much too tight. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that APPEARANCE IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF REALITY. It continually astounds me, however, that many people (mostly male) make snap judgments about other people based solely on the most superficial matters of appearance -- I refer to such sweeping statements as "I only like blondes". When one thinks about it for a moment, isn't it readily apparent that hair color has nothing to do with the contents (or lack thereof!) of the brain? And yet it continues... Rambling mode off, U212 Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-05 20:42:36 EST From: kubon@cs.sfu.ca (Petr Kubon) Hi all, --> Unique212 said: > Basically, what I'm trying to say is that APPEARANCE IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF > REALITY. It continually astounds me, however, that many people (mostly > male) make snap judgments about other people based solely on the most > superficial matters of appearance -- I refer to such sweeping statements as > "I only like blondes". When one thinks about it for a moment, isn't it > readily apparent that hair color has nothing to do with the contents (or lack > thereof!) of the brain? And yet it continues... My five cents worth: I don't think that such people actually "judge" anybody by such statements - and anything, they indirectly judge themselves. On the other hand, the whole consumer attitude of our society is based on superficialities like that - just look at advertisements, all they're about is "packaging", not content/quality, and so it doesn't suprise me that much that people pay so much attention to how they (and others) look. Depends also what you're looking for, I know that there are certain physical characteristics which I find attractive in women as potential partners but which are totally irrelevant w.r.t. my female friends. And even then, it only works for getting through the first stages, one can't built a satisfactory relationship purely on the looks (if the brain is missing as you say.) I think that everybody has preferences, our lifes are built around them - and as I said above, lots of them are fed to us every day even if we don't want to. So I wouldn't judge authors of statements like "I only like blondes" too harshly, look at this way - they don't even know what or who they're missing! And to bring the discussion back to music: for me, I don't think physical attractiveness of the singer has any importance. At least not consciously - there can still be something in the quality of the voice. But that's not gender specific, I could listen to old Robert Plant for days, too. In retrospect, music is probably the least influenced art form as far as physical image goes - well no, that's too much, let's say interactive art form (but don't want me to define what that means). If we want to REALLY get into this, let's discuss physical image in the movies!! back to work... Pp Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-05 22:56:56 EST From: wchase@silcom.com (Will Keightley) > In retrospect, music is probably the least > influenced art form as far as physical image goes - well no, that's > too much, let's say interactive art form (but don't want me to define > what that means). If we want to REALLY get into this, let's discuss > physical image in the movies!! > > back to work... > > Pp Have you noticed that physical beauty is by and large more prevalent in the women of music than in the men? Any guy with arms and fingers can pick up a guitar and make a name for himself. It seems as if women have to have the benefit of physical attractiveness in order to do the same. There are obvious exceptions on both sides of the gender fence, of course, but there are an awful lot of ugly guys out there making a living off of fine music. It doesn't seem fair. That's why I have so much respect for Suzanne, who admits that she focused on music over appearance for much of her early career and is only now paying attention to her looks. Depend on your talent. That's the way it should be. You'll always have that. The same rule seems to apply to motion pictures as well. Even more so. William P.S. Louis-Philippe, if Suzanne Vega were actually "Mr. Vega", we'd all be writing about a talent male artist who has a son named Rudy and who happens to like the music of Leonora Cohen. Either that, or she'd be Jeff Buckley. Either one would be fine with me. Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-06 00:08:42 EST From: Unique212@aol.com Hi William, Wow am I glad that a man wrote this!! If it came from me or one of the other women on the list, you'd all be saying "oh, there they go again," probably accompanied by eyeball-rolling. Would it be too obvious to state that the recording and motion picture industries are almost exclusively run by men, which probably explains the greater tolerance for unattractive male artists and actors as well as the insistence upon beautiful women?!! I for one have always felt that one plays the guitar with one's hands and one's heart, not one's hair and skimpy spandex outfits. U212 Subj: Re: Physical perception and attraction! Date: 96-12-06 09:17:03 EST From: 4dm@qlink.queensu.ca (Magenta) re: Femininity Hi Vegalist, I'm new here as well as new to Suzanne's music but here's my take: I think the very essence of Suzanne's musical persona is that it's distinctly female, but she very often detaches herself -- Suzanne Vega the singer/songwriter -- from the people in her songs. Whether her songs are based on her own experiences, she often employs the poetic device of aesthetic distance and creates a "character" through whose mouth she tells her stories. Heather Nova is a great contrast to that. Nova takes a very personal approach. Anybody have an opinion on this? I'm interested in what other people think. > is signing that take alle my attention. But you know, Suzanne may look > like a little, fragile girl, I'm sure she have a lot of temper. I also read her hilarious article on "Fighting". Extremely witty stuff. But it also shows she's no stranger to having to fight for her personal dignity. And the short (also witty) letter to...what was it...New York Times?...where she said she was never a "fucking waitress". The post-scriptum made me crack up. But it suggests Suzanne is a master at defending against aggressors while also endearing herself to supporters. That bit of "rhetorical humilitas" on the receptionist... Sorry, it was so funny I couldn't stop laughing. I.D. Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-06 09:18:05 EST From: 4dm@qlink.queensu.ca (Magenta) Hi "Unique", > recording and motion picture industries are almost exclusively run by men, > which probably explains the greater tolerance for unattractive male artists > and actors as well as the insistence upon beautiful women?!! I think you're absolutely right. Meat Loaf could sell 20 million albums. It might be harder for Roseanne Barr to do that. The film industry is a little better but just on the surface. Generally so-called "unattractive women" are stuck with comic roles, while the so-called "beautiful women" get the leads. Kate Winslet made a very insightful comment once on why she'd gone on a diet and lost something like 50 pounds: "You simply don't get any work unless you're slim. That's the way it is." And now look...she's got a nude scene in Jude and she's got a career. Janeane Garafolo, on the other hand, although extremely talented and (I find) attractive, still hasn't achieved the ultrastardom the she deserves, while a barely talented actress like Uma Thurman and Demi Moore get millions for each role. Unfair. I.D. Subj: Re: Physical Perceptions 2. Date: 96-12-06 12:30:42 EST From: rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com (Rob Walters) Hello everyone, Unique212 wrote: >True, but don't you think that it can be a little wearying to be continually >judged by one's appearance and having people behave a certain way because of >their perceptions of you as this sort of fragile, 'not-of-this-earth' >creature? Exactly. Being the compulsive person that I am, I went to the website and dug up how Suzanne addressed this in a 1990 interview for The Musician: "I don't mind [being called] 'cold,' but I do mind 'precious' or 'She's so sensitive and frail' or 'She's up there with her big eyes,' because that's not how I carry myself, I don't think. I was surprised the first time I heard 'new waif' I thought, what do they mean? I could see it in a Dickensian way, becuae Dickens' waifs were pretty smart and streetwise. They weren't pitiful. I didn't like the 'pitiful' overtones. I'm a person who's worked hard to keep my dignity both onstage and off, and I don't like it snatched away by someone who has never looked me in the face and doesn't know what my life has been like." She also said "At least if you're 'cold,' you're respected." But I think the (comparative) 'warmth' of 9OD has dispelled most of this kind of talk! -Rob Subj: Re:physical perceptions Date: 96-12-06 20:17:12 EST From: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti) My two cents on that really interesting subject: Sure the way a singer looks shouldn't be important, but the thing is that, like you all said, people often judge the others by how they look in the first place, so your appearance will always influence your life, and therefore your songs and even your voice. I mean for example an "ugly" girl can grow very unsecure, and so she won't be able to write and perform sincerely; on the other hand she can live so much pain that she will write amazing songs. You can't tell how this works, but everything is connected. Also your voice depends a lot on your face and body, and maybe there's another weird biological connection between a "beautiful" voice and a "beautiful" person, and people might be drawned to some voices the exact same way that they are drawned to beautiful people. And when you hear someone sing, you can sometimes be sure that he/she is beautiful or not (I mean if you listen to Heather Nova, it's obvious that she's beautiful). Anyway I often felt that a girl who is not really cute can turn to a gorgeous woman as soon as she begins to sing, take the Indigo Girls, Laura Nyro, Rickie Lee Jones, Janis Joplin, Michelle Shocked, Patti Smith... or even Kate Bush or Tori Amos: well OK it's pretty hard to believe that those last two aren't so cute, but in every article I've read about Kate, the interviewer always tells how he was struck to see that she was just like the girl next door. But as soon as she's performing she's totally different. Tori Amos has big ears, funny lips, long teeth and god knows where she finds her clothes (I'm exaggerating a little), but when she sits on the piano, something magical happens. She said herself that all the men she ever had, that was always thanks to the piano. Of course I'm not denying that the recording industry (and not only the recording industry) is mostly managed by pigs, I'm just trying to add perspective. To add more perspective, why should an "ugly" but very clever girl should be more respected than a "beautiful" but dumb one? I mean intelligence is not harder to get than beauty, and some people work a lot to be beautiful... so don't blame the men who only look for beautiful women, because usually they would bore clever women. (Gosh did I really write that, I should go to bed now) I personally always thought that physical appearance tells a lot about the person. I mean not only the way they look, but the way they dress, the way they move, the way they stand can give you loads of information... if you're a good judge. Of course the most important is often concealed, especially with people like Suzanne, who know how to play poker! Hey I'm only thinking about it now! there's a connection between "No Cheap Thrill" and most of Suzanne's song: once again the theme has to do with concealing the truth (not really in the song, but the fact that she likes the poker metaphors), all Suzanne's songs'characters are very good poker players, they know how to keep their faces from letting the "private go public and step through the gate". Well I'd better send this right now before I realise it's completely stupid. David Subj: Physical perceptions Date: 96-12-07 13:03:01 EST From: webbjn@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Jim Webb) There's a minor league ball park across the street from where I work. Last summer I was sitting on the front stoop eating my lunch when I heard someone practicing the national anthem for that evening's game. The guy had a beautiful voice, and he easily handled a song that many fine singers screw up royally. I was curious, so I strolled across the street to see who he was (people do this sort of thing in Nashville). I peeked through the outfield fence and saw the singer; he wasn't hard to miss. He was about 5'5", weighed about 300 pounds, and he was red as a beet from the hot weather. He'll never be signed to a record label, I thought. I knew it was an awful thing to think, but I also knew it was true. He would never be a star, not in this town, not in any town. Whose fault is that? It's easy to blame the suits who offer the contracts, but the truth is, we're all to blame. We all judge people by how they look, the way they talk, the color of their skin, their gender -- name your prejudice. And if you don't think you do it, you're kidding yourself. One of the most attractive people I ever knew was, well to be charitable, very plain. Ah, but while that might be your first impression, it would only last for the five minutes it might take before she would make your aquaintance. The girl literally lit up a room wherever she went. The way she dressed, her effervescent personality, how she carried herself, it all said "I AM beautiful." And she was. Don't EVER dismiss someone because of the way they look. Finally, if you want to put your money where your mouth is about people's appearance and musical talent, check out Israel Kamakawino'ole (cum-MAHKA-veeva-OH-lay). I heard about this guy on NPR's All Things Considered; he's called "the gentle giant of Hawaiian song" - he weighs some 700 pounds, but plays the ukelele gently and beautifully with incredible precision. He recorded a version of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" that will blow your doors off. It's on an album called "FACING FUTURE," which I'm still trying to find. It's on Big Boy records, which is distributed by Mountain Apple Company (800) 882-7088. (I got this info from NPR's web site.) Jim Subj: Re: Physical perceptions Date: 96-12-08 14:49:13 EST From: kanen@netvision.net.il (Dubi Kanengisser) Jim Webb wrote: > > There's a minor league ball park across the street from where I work. Last > summer I was sitting on the front stoop eating my lunch when I heard > someone practicing the national anthem for that evening's game. The guy had > a beautiful voice, and he easily handled a song that many fine singers > screw up royally. I was curious, so I strolled across the street to see who > he was (people do this sort of thing in Nashville). I peeked through the > outfield fence and saw the singer; he wasn't hard to miss. He was about > 5'5", weighed about 300 pounds, and he was red as a beet from the hot > weather. > > He'll never be signed to a record label, I thought. I knew it was an awful > thing to think, but I also knew it was true. He would never be a star, not > in this town, not in any town. Whose fault is that? It's easy to blame the > suits who offer the contracts, but the truth is, we're all to blame. We all > judge people by how they look, the way they talk, the color of their skin, > their gender -- name your prejudice. And if you don't think you do it, > you're kidding yourself. I'm glad to say you're wrong. People who are unattractive can and do make it out there. Here in Israel one of the most appreciated, most selling artist is one Arkady Duchin (of Russian origin), who is a very fat, and, well, downright ugly person. But his lyrics and his compositions are brilliant, and he is probably the only artist in Israel to sell a Theme Double-CD Album in such great quantities as his band's "Radio Bla-Bla" did. Looks aren't everything. A singer can succeed in this age without ever being seen. Maybe it's different in the US, but here that is the way it is. And that's a Good Thing. Yours, Dubi Kanengisser Subj: Dead Elvis and Physical Perceptions Date: 96-12-13 19:08:25 EST From: D.Lowrie@BoM.GOV.AU (Mr David Lowrie) Bruce Miyashita - very succinctly and intellegently put of course physical perceptions are a factor in our interrelationships with others - it's a reality - cold stark and all too real at times i mean, essentially we are only too acutely aware of how our perceptions have misguided us - "i fell in love with the wrong person because of the smile in their eyes" the human animal operates according to motives, drives and needs only some of which we are conscious of or that are ultimately controllable it's the same reality that i face very often whenever i go to a public gathering - (i should point out that i am very short - in a word, tiny - i also have, according to most people that know me (and i trust to pass judgement) a personality that projects across this "barrier" - and yet no matter how much personality you try to project across the gulf of height - it is simply a reality that it is really difficult in a crowded public environment not to look ridiculous and not to feel ridiculous (let me tell you) - :) and at times like that it is easy (or better) to detach yourself from the absurd situation (such as spending all night jigging up and down in a crowded venue to the music of your favourite band while in reality all you could see in front of you was the studs on some guys belt and the label of his jeans at like a distance of less than 10 inches) otherwise the reality might sort of step all over you cheers - unfortunately i've gotta run! (but i'm leaving with a smile on my face!) David Subj: Re: Physical perceptions Date: 96-12-9 19:01:51 EST From: pischel@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Erik Pischel) Hi gang, well, while reading all your thoughts on this subject I was thinking of this girl... I met her over 5 years ago in some after-school-course and found her rather ... 'ugly' (esp. because she had such a beautiful girl friend) One year later we came to the same 'high school' (or the German equivalent) and in the same class. I found her still unattractive... But over the years she became more and more attractive to me and I also got more in contact with her and today I think she's really a beautiful girl. Maybe *I* changed my taste conc. girls but I think (and this is what I try to say) *she* changed. This might be a special case - a girl became a woman - but I think in general these things happen. People do change both in look and in their "soul" (and there might some dependancies between how you look like and your personality, as some people have already pointed out). Sometimes it just might be a changed hairstyle to transform an unattractive girl to a cute one... So you always might *look* twice before you judge about a person... Thanks for reading... and thanks to everyone who contributes to this list - I appreciate this list so much for the thoughtful mails. Take care, -- Erik Pischel *** Berlin, Germany *** community service at a hospital for more info see my room page at http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~pischel "Fancy poultry parts sold here. Breasts and thighs and hearts. Backs are cheap and wings are nearly free", Fancy Poultry, Suzanne Vega