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Subj: Back from Hirakata With a Benjo on my Knee
Date: 95-03-28 03:19:09 EDT
From: bobking@gate.net
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Just a quick note to Jason, Elton and everyone else who contacted me about the Learning Annex tapes: No, I haven't forgotten you. I just returned to the U.S. after two weeks in Japan, which is why I haven't gotten to the copies till now. But I'll get them out this week.
One of the more interesting aspects of my trip was the chance to see a few Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines in action, which leads me to a question that may be a bit too personal (if so, Suzanne, I apologize in advance): namely, does anyone know what school or sect of Buddhism Suzanne and/or her family follow? My knowledge of the religion is pretty much limited to part of one college course a decade ago and some tourist literature I've been reading this month, but right now I'm having an easier time imagining her subscribing to, say, one of the Zen schools than to something like what the Japanese call the True Pure Land school, which seems to rely on personal worship of the Amida Buddha (Amitabha). I know she's said in an interview that she doesn't believe in "God"; I'm somewhat hazier on whether the various schools disagree on whether the Buddha is a god or just a wise teacher.
While I think you can go too far in ascribing an artist's outlook solely to his/her religion, it certainly can be an important factor in someone's worldview. I've often found it interesting to learn that a musician or writer I admire is, for instance, a Catholic like me; even if they no longer believe in the religion, I often feel like I understand their point of view better because of the common background, though I'd be hardpressed to say what exactly clicks for me. And I can't count the number of times I've seen Richard Thompson's background as a Sufi Muslim used to explain his fatalistic outlook (although he was writing gloomy songs way before he converted).
One thing I tried to keep in mind as I observed the monks' services is Suzanne's remark at the Learning Annex that the circular pattern of Buddhist chants may somehow be reflected in her musical style (it's not an amazingly obvious similarity as far as I could tell, but she'd certainly know better than I would). There's also something of the Buddhist belief in the unity of all existence that I see reflected in her lyrics; she certainly seems to reject the idea that people can be neatly divided into categories, such as male/female, whole/uninjured, etc., instead insisting on identifying with every imaginable point of view ("He says you stand in your own shoes; I say I'd rather stand in someone else's.") (The counterargument, of course, is that this is the same philosophy of just about any great artist, Buddhist or not.) Could her avoidance of confessional songwriting be an outgrowth of some concerted effort to renounce the self?
I also see some possible correspondences between some lines and Buddhist teachings. For instance, is the Big Space some reference to the Void that the individual is supposed to achieve upon reaching nirvana? ("All feelings fall into the Big Space/swept up like garbage on the weekend" -- a typically brutal and concrete Vegan simile.) Or, for everyone who took part in the big debate on "Undertow," how about this passage I just found while rereading an old textbook:
"[Siddhartha, later the Buddha,] took up his abode in a neighbouring wood, eating daily a modicum of millet seed, just sufficient to maintain life. Then his skin became wrinkled, his flesh fell away, and his eyes grew hollow, and all those who beheld him felt a strange feeling of fear and reverence because of these austerities.
" ... But the prince found that these austerities benefited nothing; rather he experienced less of the illumination of wisdom than heretofore."
(_Myths of the Hindus and Buddhists_ by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy and Sister Nivedita, Dover Publications, 1967; p. 266)
Compared with:
"I wanted to see how it would feel to be so sleek,
and instead I've found this hunger's made me weak."
So, whaddaya think?
-- Bob, proving just how dangerous a little knowledge can be
* Futon ga huton da *
"The futon flew out the window"
P.S. And lest I forget -- congratulations, Suzanne amd Mitchell!
Subj: religion, etc.
Date: 95-03-28 10:05:16 EDT
From: ST910158@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
while i think that comparing all of a songwriters songs to parts of their religion is a semi-waste of time, i am enthralled by this new thread. i did not know that suzanne vega was buddhist and the examples of where that might might have affected her thoughts, etc., are very interesting. the only problem is, buddhism seems to be an all-incompassing religion, where you can find a prayer, a view, that seems to fit any situation. all of her songs, therefore, most likely could be traced back to a passage somewhere. i think the fact that we all like and feel connected to her songs is evidence that religion is just a mirror of humanity. i'm sure we could find passages in her songs that would support the thought that she is, say, jewish, or muslim, or baptist. "instead I've found this hunger's made me weak." (can anyone say *passover*?) anyway, i'm getting a mite silly here, but my point is valid - perhaps delving into suzanne's religion too deeply is getting too personal, but it does provide some interesting bandwidth, let's just not take it too far, okay?
i didn't know what i was going to say, i just typed...how very buddhist of me:)
karin
Subj: Re: religion, etc.
Date: 95-03-28 11:26:36 EDT
From: f93-hle@nada.kth.se
To: ST910158@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
CC: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
> while i think that comparing all of a songwriters songs to parts of their > religion is a semi-waste of time, i am enthralled by this new thread. > i did not know that suzanne vega was buddhist and the examples of where that > might might have affected her thoughts, etc., are very interesting. the only > problem is, buddhism seems to be an all-incompassing religion, where you can > find a prayer, a view, that seems to fit any situation. all of her songs, > therefore, most likely could be traced back to a passage somewhere. > i think the fact that we all like and feel connected to her songs is > evidence that religion is just a mirror of humanity. i'm sure we could find > passages in her songs that would support the thought that she is, say, > jewish, or muslim, or baptist. "instead I've found this hunger's made me weak
I read an interview with Suzanne Vega in either the New Yorker or Time Out (the counterpart in London) - i can't recall which, where she mentioned how her step father introduced her to buddhism and its prayers. She said "you were supposed to pray for world peace. But as a fifteen year old, the only thing i prayed to Buddha for was a clear skin and a record contract"
So much for your quasi-intellectual conclusions, boys and girls.
Sincerely,
Hosuk Lee
Standard Associates,
Stockholm, Sweden
Subj: Re: religion, etc.
Date: 95-03-28 22:23:39 EDT
From: bobking@gate.net
To: ST910158@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
CC: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, KARIN wrote:
> the only problem is, buddhism seems to be an all-incompassing religion, > where you can find a prayer, a view, that seems to fit any situation.
Exactly -- Buddhism is extremely multifaceted, covering an extremely broad range of practices and beliefs, especially by the standards of Western monotheistic religions (I've read, for instance, that some monks have accepted Jesus as another manifestation of the Buddha). That's why I was asking about the school or sect that Suzanne might follow. If she were Jewish I'd be curious whether she was Orthodox, Conservative or Reform; if she were Christian I'd want to know whether she was Catholic, Protestant or Eastern Orthodox.
> i think the fact that we all like and feel connected to her songs is > evidence that religion is just a mirror of humanity.
Very true.
> i'm sure we could find > passages in her songs that would support the thought that she is, say, > jewish, or muslim, or baptist.
Except she's not.
But I agree with your point. It would be silly to claim that "Gypsy" is about the migrations of the Zen monks through China or that "Wooden Horse" is about a statue of Kantaka, Siddhartha's steed. I'm also not about to try to interpret Donny and Marie Osmond songs in light of the teachings of the Mormon Church, although perhaps someone has already tried that.
> "instead I've found this hunger's made me weak." > (can anyone say *passover*?)
OK, but think about this: In Passover, Lent and other Judeo-Christian rituals that involve fasting or the eating of frugal meals, the idea is to use hunger to mortify the body and focus on the spiritual. What struck me in the episode involving the Buddha was his recognition that sometimes when you starve the body all you end up doing is focusing your mind on the hunger; it doesn't help you reach any spiritual enlightenment because you can't stop thinking about your stomach. Maybe it's a coincidence, but that's exactly what struck me about Suzanne's song when I first heard it a decade ago: she seemed to be questioning the assumption, so common in our culture, that extremes must be good.
Subj: Re: religion, etc.
Date: 95-03-28 23:30:41 EDT
From: judynew@pipeline.com
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995 Robert King
>That's why I was asking about >the school or sect that Suzanne might
follow. If she were Jewish I'd be curious >whether she was Orthodox,
Conservative or Reform; if she were Christian I'd >want to know whether she
was Catholic, Protestant or Eastern Orthodox.
>OK, but think about this: In Passover, Lent and other Judeo-Christian
rituals>that involve fasting or the eating of frugal meals, the idea is to
use hunger>to mortify the body and focus on the spiritual. What struck me
in the episode >involving the Buddha was his recognition that sometimes
when you starve the >body all you end up doing is focusing your mind on the
hunger; it doesn't help>you reach any spiritual enlightenment because you
can't stop thinking about>your stomach. Maybe it's a coincidence, but
that's exactly what struck me about
>Suzanne's song when I first heard it a decade ago: she seemed to be
questioning >the assumption, so common in our culture, that extremes must
be good.
>
The sidebar article Suzanne wrote for the 1990 Musician magazine interview,
which is on the WWW page (I think it's called "Open Hand Book") may shed
some light on the matter. In it, Suzanne mentions Nichiren Shoshu as the
name of the sect.
Robert, you may be on the right track: one of the principles of Nichiren
Shoshu is that practicing austerities don't really achieve anything
(except, perhaps, a feeling of self-righteousness and/or superiority). But
let's not start a silly thread about various schools of practice.
Subj: Re: religion, etc.
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, h a lee wrote:
> I read an interview with Suzanne Vega in either the New Yorker or Time Out (the
> counterpart in London) - i can't recall which, where she mentioned how her step
> father introduced her to buddhism and its prayers. She said "you were supposed
> to pray for world peace. But as a fifteen year old, the only thing i prayed
> to Buddha for was a clear skin and a record contract"
> So much for your quasi-intellectual conclusions, boys and girls.
Not so fast, H.A.! I don't give up that easily. Suzanne's comment happens
to have been extremely Zen. Witness this:
... Francis Xavier landed at Kagoshima and was received very
kindly by the priests of the Zen temple that dominated the city.
He was shown around the monks' quarters and the _zendo_ (the
meditation room), where the novices were seated in the lotus
position, their eyes fixed three paces in front of them,
absolutely immobile.
To his question, "But what are they doing?" his friend, the priest
Ninjitsu, replied, "Some are figuring how much they received from
the faithful last month, others are asking themselves what it would
take to be better fed and better dressed, still others are thinking
about what they are going to do in their spare time -- in short,
none of them are thinking about anything at all sensible."
An absolutely honest response. Francis Xavier should have asked
himself whether such triviality in people whose character he
admired didn't hide something important.
Nicholas Bouvier, _The Japanese Chronicles_,
Mercury House, 1992; page 136
Perhaps, so should we.
More seriously, what 15-year-old of any religion doesn't pray for things
like clear skin or a good grade on a test or a date with some really cute
classmate (OK, I admit the record contract might be a bit more unusual)?
I remember praying for the Yankees to lose the World Series (they won, so
I guess my prayers were less successful than hers).
That doesn't mean she never took the religion seriously or that its
beliefs never affected her worldview. James Joyce completely repudiated
Catholicism, but an understanding of it is still a big help in
understanding _Ulysses_.
Anyway, at this point I'd like to second Karin's suggestion that we not
take this too seriously. I just think it's an interesting avenue to explore,
and again I certainly don't mean to offend anybody.
-- Bob
Subj: Buddhism and "Pilgrimage"
On Mon, 3 Apr 1995 EricS10332@aol.com said:
>I certainly don't know much (if anything) about Buddhism.. I'd be
interested in >hearing your ideas on "Pilgrimage" - is this a song with
Buddhist themes?
>Eric
The answer is in "The Open Hand-Book: Notes on Her New Album by Suzanne
Vega," which is on the WWW page and was originally published in Musician
magazine, June 1990. Direct quote from the songwriter:
" "Pilgrimage" comes from the incense bowl. I've been a Buddhist since I ws
16 -- the Nichiren Shoshu sect. So every morning I chant and burn incense.
It's that linear thing of time as a line that's burning. Sometimes I watch
the incense burn, and I imagine that it's this great journey from one end
of this big, dusty bowl to the other. The song starts off with the one
line of incense that turns into the life that turns into the land, and I
felt happy with the idea of expansion. I'm saying, "I'm coming to you/I'll
be there in time" to death as well as to the source. But there's a feeling
of, when I die, it will be okay, because I will have done what I mean to
do. I won't have missed it."
So, the answer to your question is yes.
Judy
Subj: Pilgrimage
To add briefly to Judy's answer: pilgrimage is an important concept/ritual
in Buddhism. (I just took a seminar in Hindu and Buddhist Devotion, fall
semester.) So it certainly makes sense that a Buddhist thinking about her
incense bowl would think in terms of pilgrimage. It's something often done
with goddess worship.
Leah
Subject: Suzanne and religion
We appreciate Suzanne's music very much but, honestly, could not care if she
is religious or not. We think her music is great and hope it stays this way.
It seems detrimental to the music when people pick it apart and pull out
little pieces of this and that. The music should be enjoyed as a whole. Just
listen and enjoy.
Garth & Bibi
Subject: pilgrimage and other topics
Dear gang:
It has been a while since I posted a note, but I have been reading the
comments, as usual, with great interest --
I wanted to thank Eric S. for setting up the WWW page, along with Hugo and
Jeremy from AGF (am I leaving someone out?) -- I hear it's great. I haven't
seen it yet, as I don't have the software to get there (Mosaic, perhaps?).
Thanks for the messages of congratulations regarding my wedding! For the
record, Mitchell is 41 and not 31, as they reported in the newspapers. Not
that it matters, really !
Lately I have been working on a piece called "Fighting With Boys" which is
due to come out in Details magazine this spring. I am not sure which issue.
Regarding "Pilgrimage" -- yes, it was about the incense bowl, as it said the
quoted interview, but it was also about the journey to find my father, who I
met in 1988. He lives in California, and I lived in New York, so I took a
plane trip across the country to see him for the first time since I was 18
months old. So "years of an inch and a step toward a source" means my source
-- my father. It's a song with at least two meanings.
Thanks for your questions and your comments -- I appreciate them with my
whole heart.
Suzanne Vega
Subject: Re: Pilgramage and other topics
Hello, all
I just wanted to tell Suzanne what a pleasure it is to have her visit
this group, which exists, of course, because of her (you). Thanks
personally for all the great and meaningful music over the last few
years.
I was taken by your explanation for the song "Pilgramage". I have al-
ways enjoyed this one from many angles, but, of course, was unaware of
the connection with your father. I can relate in a way to the feel-
ings you had. I am divorced and the father of a young girl. Although
I have joint legal custody, primary physical custody belongs to her
mom. Though we share a mutual love for our daughter, the potential
exists that someday they could move away. This possibility makes me
aware of each day I have to spend with her and want to be involved with
her as much as I am I able.
For those who also may relate to the dynamic interactions between a
parent and child I might recommend two other songs which, for me, ex-
press those feelings: "The Fog", by Kate Bush, and "Mercy Street", by
Peter Gabriel. Both, in addition to "Pilgramage", speak of this bond
between parent and child in different, yet potent and, for me, emotion-
al ways. In fact, "The Fog" may be the opposite of "Pilgramage", in
that Kate speaks, I think, of the child growing up and being released
from the need to look back to the parent for help. It is the old story
of being strong and taking charge of one's life, of breaking connec-
tions. "Pilgramage" seems to speak of trying to make that connection.
Both speak eloquently, I think.
Suzanne, thanks again for sharing your "Pilgramage" with us. And I
hope you're soon able to see what a fantastic web site has been built
about you.
Paul
pmurf@ix.netcom.com
Subject: just music?
>We appreciate Suzanne's music very much but, honestly, could not care
>if she is religious or not. We think her music is great and hope it
>stays this way. It seems detrimental to the music when people pick it
>apart and pull out little pieces of this and that. The music should be
>enjoyed as a whole. Just listen and enjoy.
the music can become much more powerful when you fully
understand what it is talking about. sure, there are many different
interpretations that can come about, but therein lies the ultimate
vision of each individual to take out whatever they want. obviously,
what someone else thinks a song means holds no interest for you.
taking into account suzanne's religious background can mean the
difference between ignorance and understanding. as it turns out, she
did have a very specific image in mind in 'pilgrimage' that is very
potent in light of her buddist beliefs.
ken
VegaNet@aol.com and
(snip)
Date: 95-03-29 01:51:24 EDT
From: bobking@gate.net
To: f93-hle@nada.kth.se
CC: ST910158@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
CC: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-03 08:44:37 EDT
From: judynew@pipeline.com
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-03 14:12:45 EDT
From: loppenh1@cc.swarthmore.edu
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-18 23:38:32 EDT
From: 1066560@infosys7.infosys.unsw.Edu.au (Garth)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-19 17:57:00 EDT
From: Suzanne Vega
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-20 20:12:58 EDT
From: pmurf@ix.netcom.com (Paul Murphy)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Date: 95-04-21 23:13:43 EDT
From: kenster@MIT.EDU (ostrander)
To: undertow@law.lawlib.emory.edu
Hugo G. Westerlund <Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se>
Up to Suzanne Vega Home Page