the vin scelsa show
WNEW, New York, September 15, 1996
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Guest: Suzanne Vega ["No Cheap Thrill"] Vin: So, now I have her actually right in front of me: Suzanne Vega, and I welcome her to my show, welcome her back to my show. And now that I have you right in front of me, I can say to you: You know what that song did to me one day about two weeks ago? Suzanne: What? Vin: It drove me crazy! Suzanne: Really! Vin: Yeah, with that bom-bom-bom-ba-ba-ba-ba-bom [SV laughs] was in my head for an entire day. It was the first piece of music I listened to that morning. Suzanne: Oh! Vin: About a week and a half ago. And no matter what I did for the whole rest of the day, I couldn't get that riff out of my head. It just was like... Suzanne: Well, that's good to know. Vin: Yeah, you think? [Vin laughs] Suzanne: That's my little guitar riff. It's my little one-string melody. Vin: Is that yours? Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Yeah? Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Can you play that? Do you actually do that one live? Suzanne: Uhhhh... Vin: That's such a sort of an arrangement kind of a song. Suzanne: It is an arrangement kind of song. I've been practicing it, you know, because I basically wrote it on one string, which is this string. [SV plays the riff on her guitar] It's like all on one string. So it kind of lacks a little something right now in the acoustic presentation of it. But I'm working on it. Vin: It just absolutely drove me crazy. [He plays the riff from the record again while SV laughs] Which was okay as long as I was alone. Suzanne: Right. Vin: But I was doing things like, you know, going to the store, and going to the gas station, and walking around in the mall, and things like that, and I'm going "bom-bom-bom-ba-ba-ba-ba-bom". Suzanne: I think that's the kind of song, it's kind of like a walking-around sort of song, I think. That's when I first thought of it, was on a Saturday afternoon when I was walking through Soho, I think, with my daughter, and when I got back home I realized that that line had sort of curled itself up-- Vin: The musical line. Suzanne: Yeah, the musical line. Vin: And you said the musical line came first? Suzanne: Yeah, I started fooling around with the guitar once I got home, and I realized that it had sort of been there for a while before I realized that I could make a song out of it. Vin: Ahhh. And then-- is that usually the way it comes for you? Does the music come first usually? Suzanne: It used to be that the music would usually come first. Lately I feel like I work all different kinds of ways. Sometimes it's the music, sometimes it's the...it's a phrase or a...a couple of lines that I've written down in a notebook somewhere, and then they come to life when I get the music. So it's-- the older I get, the more variety there is. Vin: Well, that's good. It means you're open to lots of different sources of inspiration, and different ways of working as well. Suzanne: Yeah, I think I've had to become that way, because my time has changed. You know, as a teenager I just, uh, I would start working on a Saturday night, 'cause I never went out, so I would just stay home, and then start working at about eight o'clock, and fall asleep about one in the morning, and then I'd finish the song the next morning and...so now I don't do that anymore. Now I just...now it's usually late afternoon. [laughs] Since Ruby was born, it's like, I don't have my nighttimes anymore. Vin: This is what you're talking about, the major changes-- Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: The fact that just about two years ago you had a child-- Suzanne: I had a daughter, yeah. Vin: And that brings lots of changes on us. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: And especially when you're a creative artist who is used to working on the spur of the moment, the kind of situation that you're discussing right now is one that you really don't think about ahead of time. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Before you have a kid. You don't go, "Wait a minute, how is this going to affect how I work?" You know? but-- Suzanne: Yeah, people had told me that it would, and I honestly didn't really believe them. I just figured, well, you still have the same feelings, and then, you know, while the baby's asleep you'll whip out your guitar. But what they don't tell you is when the baby's asleep, you're like, your brain is fried. [laughs] You just have nothing. You know, when the baby goes to sleep, you go to sleep. Vin: Yeah, you hope that you're asleep, too. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Well, is she doing that now? Is she sleeping through the night? Or, uh-- Suzanne: Not always because we travel a lot, and so she's usually jet lagged, or we're jet lagged, Vin: Ohhhh, yeah. Suzanne: You know, sometimes my husband will go away, and then he'll come back, and so she's excited. Or I'll go away and then come back. And so, she's still kind of not exactly always sleeping through the night. She's sleeping right now, though. Vin: My daughter is 16. She still doesn't sleep through the night. Suzanne: Right. [They laugh] Vin: She still can be up at some point along the way. Suzanne: Right. Vin: Complaining about something. Suzanne: Something, yeah. Vin: Actually, I'm exaggerating. She sleeps through the night now 'cause she's exhausted. Suzanne: Right. Vin: 'Cause she works so hard. She's 16, a junior in high school. But she, for many years, didn't sleep through the night, you know? That just became her habit. She became, like, a nocturnal creature almost. And everybody kept saying, "That'll go away after a year or two, you know, once they're out of babyhood." Naah. It didn't. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: It was a long time before we got a full night's sleep again. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: But it's worth it. Suzanne: [laughs] I think so. Vin: Roo-bee. Yeah. So what kind of music is she into? Suzanne: Oh, she's into all different kinds of music. I mean, this morning we tried playing the Allman Brothers, and she wasn't thrilled about that. She likes the new record. She likes... Vin: Your new record. Suzanne: My new record, yeah. She listens to some of the Disney stuff like "Hi-ho" and, you know, the Seven Dwarves soundtrack. Vin: Okay. Suzanne: She listens to...for a while she was very deep into Burl Ives, which was kind of a pleasant thing for me. Vin: Sort of like, "Big Rock Candy Mountain" and stuff like that? Suzanne: More like, what was it, "Little White Duck." [laughs] Vin: "Little White Duck"? Suzanne: It was "Little White Duck." And the Pete Seeger tape, she liked that one. I sort of wanted her to listen to the songs that I'd grown up listening to, so I played some of those old tapes, and so she likes them. Vin: Right. Suzanne: And then I have a tape that we made together, of the two of us singing songs, and so she listens to that. The Mama/Ruby tape. Vin: Oh yeah? [SV laughs] Suzanne: Yes. Don't look like that, it's not going out of the house, believe me. Vin: Yeah, boy, I'd love to get ahold of that. Suzanne: Way too embarrassing. [laughs] Vin: [laughs] Can we hear that someday? Come on. Suzanne: It's me singing "Kumbaya" and all sorts of things that I said I'd never sing. Vin: Yeah. Right. But for the kid you'll sing 'em, of course. Suzanne: Oh yeah. No, the two of us, we sing them together. Vin: Sure, sure...How's Mitchell? Suzanne: He's good. Vin: Okay, Mitchell Froom is Suzanne's husband as well as producer/partner, sometimes even co-songwriting partner. Suzanne: Sometimes, yeah. Vin: So the three of you comprise this interesting unit as family on the one hand and work unit on the other. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Up to and including the fact that Ruby sings, too, right? Suzanne: Well, she sings...she's really, I think, more into percussion. [laughs] She's really more into making loud noise with the cymbals and the sticks lately-- Vin: Well, that's gotta-- Suzanne: That's what she's really into. She walks around the house banging. You know, Mitchell's working on a film score, and then Ruby walks around the house smashing the cymbals together and playing the tambourine. It's very noisy around our house. Vin: Well, that has to be the Mitchell gene coming to the forefront. Suzanne: [laughs] I think so. Vin: Don't you think? I mean, 'cause he's real into percussion. That's really become a trademark of the work that's producing and working on with Tchad Blake as well as just interesting percussive sounds. Suzanne: Yeah, some of it, although he's also really versatile, 'cause there's a lot of string arrangements, or horn sections, or...I think he tries to do what's appropriate for the song. But yeah, things have become a lot more percussive on my records since I've been working with him. Vin: We're talking about Ruby. Can we start right right at the very beginning of this new album of yours, the album called "Nine Objects of Desire"? Of course, that song that we just played is the one that's been floating around for a month or so now. It's the single. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: "No Cheap Thrill." Suzanne: Yep. Vin: And I should identify that They Might Be Giants song that I played before that, which I played for my daughter. "Exquisite Dead Guy" [SV laughs] is the title of that. It's from their new album. She listened to the new album yesterday, and she said so far that's her favorite track on it. So she requested that I play it for her tonight. "Exquisite Dead Guy" from "Factory Showroom," They Might Be Giants, not yet out. The new Suzanne Vega album is out. It is called "Nine Objects of Desire." I'll ask you about the title maybe a bit later on. Suzanne: Okay. Vin: You can decide whether or not you want to tell me about it. Suzanne: Okay. [laughs] Vin: But I thought we could begin at the beginning, because the very first track is called "Birth-Day," parentheses, "Love Made Real." Birth, and it's not like "birthday," one word, it's "Birth," hyphen, "Day." Suzanne: Right. Vin: It is probably safe for me to assume that this song is, to a certain extent, about the birth day of Ruby. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: About giving birth. Suzanne: It's about the day she was born, yeah. Vin: And was it... Suzanne: A difficult subject. [laughs] Vin: I mean, how soon after her birth did the song come to you? I mean, did it take a long time? Did this song gestate, you should pardon the expression, for a long time before you were able to get it out and deal with it? Suzanne: Yeah, it was earlier this spring. I'd say it was...she was just about a year and a half old and probably almost two years old by the time we'd written the song. I knew that it was womething I wanted to write about, but it was very difficult, you know, you have to...when you think back on those experiences, to figure out what details to put in and what details to leave out, and how graphic do you make a song like that, and...and so I had the music first, and I just had to kind of figure out what to sing there. Vin: This is not a simpy lullaby kind of song. Suzanne: No, I mean, well, I was surprised in a way that no one had written...I don't think I've ever heard a song about that particular experience before. I think other women have written songs about their children. Chrissie Hynde, I think, wrote "Show Me the Meaning of the Word," and that's a really beautiful song to her daughter, but the experience itself is so extreme and especially in modern...I mean, it's just such an extreme experience that...I think if guys experienced it you'd hear about it all the time. [laughs] Vin: Aha. Really. Well, there's a couple of lines towards the end of the song that I remember very specifically was as close as I came to at least visually experiencing the thing. The line is "Shake all over like an old sick dog / There's a needle here, a needle there, tremble in the fog / It's a tight squeeze, vise grip, ice and fire / She's a hot little treasure / And the wave goes higher." I mean, it's a wonderful, as you say, graphic and evocative image of what that experience is. But I'll never forget shortly before my wife went into the room she had gone through labor for a long time, and ultimately had to have a caesarian. Suzanne: Right. As I did, yeah. Vin: Okay. So shortly before she went in for that, they gave her something. They stuck her with something. Suzanne: Right. Vin: And I was in the room with her, and quite literally, just "shake all over like an old sick dog," that's what happened to her. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: She just started, like, her whole body began-- Suzanne: That's what I had. Vin: Yeah! I guess it's from whatever the drug is that they give you at that point, I don't know what-- Suzanne: Sometimes you have a reaction to it, but some women shake in labor anyway. But I think with some women it's a reaction to that drug. Vin: Yeah. 'Cause up til that point, there hadn't been anything like that. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: And as soon as they give her that, I was like, Oh my G...and I looked at the guy like "What did you do to her?" You know, "I'll punch you out! What did you do to my wife?" [SV laughs] So... Suzanne: Well, it kind of makes you cold all over-- Vin: Yeah? Suzanne: Because it's supposed to numb the feeling, and you still have sensation, but you don't have the feeling, and...but what you feel is a kind of a deep, cold feeling when you're experiencing it. You still experience this, you know, these sensations, but between the drugs, and the feelings that you're having, and then the long hours and everything, it just takes you out so far. And so when I...I was just thinking back on that day and wanted to organize it and kind of put it into a shape for myself. And that's what it ended up being. ["Birth-Day (Love Made Real)"] Vin: There's that constant heartbeat throughout, too, isn't there. [SV laughs] That rhythm that it begins with, and it's there throughout... almost sounds like horns on that track towards the very end, but there aren't horns on that. Suzanne: No, I don't think there's any horns. It's...keyboards, two drummers, bass, guitar. Vin: Pete Thomas and Jerry Marota. Suzanne: Jerry Marotta. Vin: Jerry Marotta, I'm sorry, on drums. Where do I know Jerry from? Suzanne: He played with Peter Gabriel. Vin: Okay. Suzanne: And many other people. Vin: And that's Mitchell on the keyboard? Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: That's nice, that's a nice sound. It's an organ sound, but it's not an organ. It's a keyboard approximating an organ? Do you think, or remember? Suzanne: You know, I don't know what he does sometimes. He's got a lot of things and then either he changes it, or I'll go back and redo things, and half the time I don't remember what the exact things that both of them have done. Vin: 'Cause it has that Hammond, like that B-3 kinda sound. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: I like that a lot. So how do you guys work together? Do you... at a certain point do you just sort of leave the room and, like you say, he'll go back and he'll rework things and play with things and stuff...does he work on the tapes without your presence, and then come back to you and say, "Hey, check this out, listen to this"? Suzanne: Yeah, sometimes. Let's see...well, there's different stages. You know, when we're doing preproduction we get together in a room and, we'll just sort of see what the other one has. I'll have some lyrics, I'll have some melodies, sometimes I'll have melodies with no lyrics and sometimes, you know...but then once we've got the song structures down and we're actually doing the recording, I'm usually there all day. Sometimes he'll come in early the second day of a song and do something. But I get the final say when that ever happens. Vin: Oh sure. Suzanne: Occasionally I've come in and said, "Where's that guitar part that I liked?" and they'll be like, "Oh, we erased it, we thought it was really corny." And I'll say, "Well, you have to get it back, 'cause I loved it." Vin: Uh-huh. Suzanne: That was something that happened on "In Liverpool." They had erased the beautiful chiming guitar part that I kept falling in love with, and they had thought it was too corny, so they had to go get the guy-- Vin: Oh no! They-- Suzanne: and get him to rerecord it, or actually I think Tchad had sort of approximated what had happened. They made up another guitar line that they thought would work. Vin: You're not supposed to erase anything! Suzanne: No, but they...[laughs] the way they work is so stream of consciousness, you know, it's like, well, you know, it all depends... it's sort of like a performance. What's the word? It would be like something in progress, it's always in progress. Vin: A work in progress. Suzanne: Yeah, it's a work in progress, and then, finally once it's mixed then it's finished, and then you forget about it. Vin: All right, so an obvious question, when you talk about people who work together professionally like that-- Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Who are also married, they live together. Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: Is there a point at which the works stops and family life, domestic life begins, and the work doesn't sneak in? Or is the work always there? Suzanne: For me, I really like to just leave my work outside the house. I really, I don't like to talk about arrangements, or musicians, or touring, or anything inside the house. But Mitchell, he's the kind of guy who is just always hearing music in his mind, and he's always working on something, and so it's always with him. It doesn't matter really to him where we're working. He can work in the living room with Ruby marching around, you know, and...'cause he's just really into it, he's always consumed by music. Whereas I find I really need to leave it at the front door. So when we work together, I lke to work out of the house, that's kind of my role...for myself as we work away from the house. Vin: And...so do you find yourselves compatible on these different modes of operation? Or do you get to a point where you just look at him, "Stop! Stop doing that!" [SV laughs] "And, you know, come over here and do this!" You know? I mean-- Suzanne: Occasionally, 'cause he likes strange, you know, he likes strange instruments and things that...yeah, he's got this keyboard that he's really crazy about, it's like a...something he got in Paris. It's probably from the late 1800s. And he's just nuts about it, but to me it sounds like a bunch of whistling teapots, you know, and then the high notes really make me nuts, [laughs] so I have to go somewhere else if he's gonna play that. But for the most part, you know, I don't mind what he's doing as long as he's working on something else in the house, but when we're together-- Vin: Not your stuff. Suzanne: Yeah, not my stuff. Vin: Okay. Suzanne: So, that's kind of where the line is drawn. Vin: Suzanne Vega is my guest tonight here on WNEW. Do you like my new digs? Suzanne: Beautiful! Beautiful! Vin: Very nice, huh? Yeah. Nice and big. Suzanne: Actually what I really like is to watch you dancing before. I thought that was very nice. [They laugh] I liked watching you dance to "Birth-Day." That made my day. Vin: You weren't supposed to see that. Suzanne: Oh, I'm sorry. [laughs] Vin: And before, to "No Cheap Thrill." Suzanne: I think it was "Birth-Day." Vin: Was it "Birth-Day" that I was dancing to? Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Well, "Birth-Day," it just...there's this movement. I mean, that's what the song is about; it's about a movement, you know? Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: So, okay, so now I know it was during "No Cheap Thrill" I actually wrote some stuff down. Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: I actually wrote down some of the lyrics. Because it occurred to me that they have all these other meanings beyond the meanings that they have in the card game-- Suzanne: Right. Vin: That's going on there, with Lame-Brain Pete and Butcher Boy and-- Suzanne: Right. Vin: These other characters. Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: And just looking at them, written down, in my own scrawl of a handwriting now, they do have a whole different meaning. I'm talking about the words, "I'll see you"-- Suzanne: Right. Vin: "I'll call you," "I'll raise you." You know? Especially in light of "Birth-Day" and the fact that you had a young child, you know? Suzanne: Right. Vin: "I'll raise you" takes on a whole different meaning. Suzanne: Right, right. Vin: But "I'll see you"..."I'll call you" [They laugh] Are you a card player? Suzanne: Yeah, actually. Vin: Yeah? Really? Suzanne: Well, when I left my house to come here, my whole family was in the middle of a card game that I had to leave. There was my brother, my mother, and my sister and my niece. [laughs] Vin: Oh yeah? Suzanne: And their two friends were all playing poker as I left the house. Vin: Poker? Suzanne: Yeah, sort of in a...that's what...the song is based on poker language. Vin: Right, right. But the...but it's interesting that those words can have other meanings as well. Suzanne: Yeah, I just love words that are like that-- Vin: Yeah, yeah. Suzanne: That you can find and that they have a bunch of different kinds of meanings. Vin: So are you a good poker player? Suzanne: I'm pretty good, yeah. Vin: Poker face, dumb face? Suzanne: I'm pretty good, I'm pretty good. 'Cause most of the time I come in and people think that I'm sort of inexperienced, and... this was the best night I ever had, I won $8.00 on a penny ante. Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: So that was pretty cool. Vin: Yean, really. [SV laughs] See, I'm terrible. I'm a bad liar, and I can't keep a secret-- Suzanne: Uh-huh. Vin: And I'm a terrible card player. If I have a good hand, I slip. [SV laughs] I just, I just start smiling. And I "Woo- de-da de-da-da, da da," and everybody's out. [They laugh] You know, it's like...but I like to play. And those family games, sometimes those are the most fun games, you know, those family penny ante games. Suzanne: Yeah! Vin: I used to play cards all the time with a dear friend of mine who's like my brother, and his father and uncle, so these two old guys, Uncle Louie and Uncle Jake-- Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: Are these two old Italian guys. Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: Who have been playing cards for, like, you know, sixty, sixty-five years, seventy years together, all their lives, and they knew each other's tricks, they knew when each other was cheating-- Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: And it was great fun to watch and play. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: And to attempt to, like, second guess them and stuff. I never could. I mean, I'd get a good hand and I'd smile. [SV laughs] Now, this new album is called "Nine Objects of Desire." When I first heard the title, and hadn't seen the album yet, I thought, "Well, hmm, maybe there will be nine songs--" Suzanne: Right. Vin: On the album. There aren't nine songs; there are twelve. Suzanne: Right. Vin: So where does the title come from? Suzanne: Well, you know, things in life are never as tidy as they might be in the abstract world, so there are some objects of desire that you want more than others, you know, so there are some objects of desire that get two songs, like...Ruby has two. Mitchell has two songs. The figure of death has two songs. Vin: Ohhhh. Suzanne: So that's three objects of desire in six songs. Vin: Right. Suzanne: And...you know, there's a little statement right there in the beginning of the album, and it says who the album is dedicated to, and those are the nine objects. Vin: Oh, I see. For Ruby. Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: MF. Suzanne: Right. Vin: Lolita. Suzanne: Right. Vin: The figure of death. Suzanne: Yep. Vin: Three men. Suzanne: Right. Vin: One woman. Suzanne: Right. Vin: [laughs] And a partridge in a pear-- [SV laughs] No, and a plum. Suzanne: And a plum. Vin: And a plum. [laughs] Which this is not. This on the cover. Suzanne: Oh, no, it's an apple, yeah. Vin: This is not a plum. It's a green apple. Suzanne: It's a green apple. I asked on the day that we did the shoot I said, "Well, where are the plums?" Vin: Uh-huh. Suzanne: They said, "Well, the plums are out of season." This was back in April. So, but they said, "The apples look really good." So they bought a bunch of apples, and that became the object of desire on the record. Vin: Mmm. Even though the song is "My Favorite Plum." Suzanne: Yeah. But it also, I mean, there were other reasons for the apple. You know, I guess you could say that Ruby is the apple of my eye, and that sort of thing. Vin: Uh-huh, yeah. Suzanne: And that's why I picked that picture that's over my eye. Vin: Okay. Okay. This is an interesting song about desire on this album that I wonder how people have reacted to so far, 'cause the album just came out this week. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: So you probably haven't gotten a lot of fan reaction to it yet. The song's "Stockings." If we take the song quite literally-- Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: The song seems to be about a woman being attracted to another woman. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: If we assume that the narrator, the singer of the song is a woman. Suzanne: Right. Vin: And we do that because you're singing it. Suzanne: Right. [laughs] Vin: Which may not necessarily be fair. It could be about anybody. Suzanne: Right. Vin: You know, it could be a guy. Suzanne: Could be a guy. Vin: Narrating the song. And it's a real interesting song. It's a very, sort of matter-of-fact, as well as seductive song. Am I reading the right things into it? Suzanne: Absolutely. Vin: Or am I totally off? Suzanne: I mean, in some ways actually you're probably reading even more than...I mean, I think that all the songs on this record are really from my own point of view, which is probably not the way I've written other songs in the past, you know, I've gone to great lengths to sort of create characters and... Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: Throw my voice into them. And this one, it happens to be one that is from my own point of view, you know, and actually when I was working with Mitchell he sort of...you know, well, he kinda gives me a look and he says, "So, is this something that happened recently?" [Vin laughs] And I said, "Well, no, it isn't, you know, it was just sort of, you know, a passing moment that happened, like, ten, fifteen years ago." Vin: Yeah. Suzanne: So he goes, "Oh, that's good." Vin: Uh-huh. Suzanne: And then it's the end of that discussion, you know, so...but a lot of people, yeah, have been curious or they're wanting to know, did I write it from a specifically male point of view. Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: I did make the choice when I was writing it not to bring the issue of gender into the narrator. Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: 'Cause I felt like if a guy wanted to cover this song, like Evan Dando or somebody -- you know, Evan Dando had covered "Luka" -- I thought it would be interesting to just write it from a perspective that could go either way. Vin: Yeah. Yeah. Which is part of the seductiveness of the song, too. The mystery-- Suzanne: There's a lot of men who really like this song because I think that they have been there. Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: In that moment. Vin: Could I get you to sing it for us? Suzanne: Yeah. ["Stockings," acoustic version] Vin: Suzanne Vega. I like that line about...that she doesn't show you the way out on the way in. [They laugh] Yeah. I see. Suzanne: Well, she was the kind of girl that might do that. [They laugh] Vin: Definitely. Definitely a problem. Would you mind if I played the album version of it? Suzanne: Oh, please! Vin: 'Cause there's such a difference between it and-- Suzanne: Yeah, I like the album version, too. Vin: Yeah. Suzanne: I really like it. ["Stockings," album version] Vin: Where did this sort of Middle Eastern thing come from there in that song? Suzanne: Mitchell's imagination? [laughs] He just said to me, "Well, what if we put some Arabian strings there?" and I said, "Oh, that's a good idea." And-- Vin: See, that's-- Suzanne: That's where they came. Vin: That's, I guess, maybe what I was talking about earlier with Mitchell as a producer-- Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: Not only on your stuff but on the other things he's worked on... is that all of a sudden these sounds will come at you from out of nowhere, and they're wonderful. They're like, they tease you and they tickle you, and they make you laugh [SV laughs] and they fit as well. I mean, they're not just extraneous sounds-- Suzanne: Yeah. I think so, too. Vin: I mean, that song is sort of moving along one way, and all of a sudden it's like Kashmir! [SV laughs] You know, it's like, whoa! Suzanne: The belly-dancer comes in. Vin: Really. But it works, it works. Suzanne: I think so. Vin: So it'll be interesteing to see what the fan reaction is to that song. Suzanne: Oh, it's been very interesting so far. I mean, I've gotten a wide range of responses. 'Cause I've been doing these in-stores, you know, all week in different cities and stuff like that, so people will come up and...one man came up to me and said, "I wouldn't ask this except that you put it out there, so I feel I have to ask you, you know, if you consider yourself to be bisexual," you know-- Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: And I said, "No I don't consider myself to be bisexual. I'm heterosexual with...but I've imagined upon occasion that it could be otherwise, really," so that's been...and he was terribly apologetic for even asking the question, you know-- Vin: Yeah, true. Suzanne: But he was going, "Well, you put it out there," you know. So there's been some amount of curiosity, or whatever, but I mean, no one's been offended, or...some people have thought it was really great, or some people have felt like...that I was speaking for them on some level. So... Vin: Speaking of being offended, I've read somewhere that...I think it was like somewhere on one of the web sites-- Suzanne: I know, yeah. Vin: Now I know, yeah, you've been sort of interested in the Internet as a way of communication for a while now. Suzanne: For a couple of years, yeah. Vin: I remember the last time we spoke, which was maybe [the transcriber lost a few seconds here when he turned over the tape; Vin mentioned the Learning Annex talk from Jan '96, then returned to the subject of the Internet] Vin: Yourself, at least you were doing it then. I don't know if you still do it now. Suzanne: Yeah, it's not quite like that. I don't go to the, um, I don't go into the rooms where they're discussing; it's not like a live room. Vin: Okay. Suzanne: It's more like I'll post things-- Vin: Uh-huh. Suzanne: And then receive mail...and read the mail. But it's very rare that I'm actually...I only did my first live chat, actually, last Tuesday. Last Monday. Where there was like a live discussion that went on around the room. Vin: And that's one of those official sponsored kind of things. Suzanne: It's sponsored, yeah. Vin: Yeah, yeah. Suzanne: 'Cause otherwise, I don't...I think it can tolerate up to a thousand people at a time, so it'd just be mayhem, you can imagine. Vin: And...yeah, and somebody's [SV laughs] sort of going through the questions, and-- Suzanne: Well, I went through the questions, and I picked out the ones I was gonna answer-- Vin: Ah. Suzanne: And then I posted them, and so we did this-- so it was live, and within the space of an hour. Vin: Right. Suzanne: But most of the time it's a little more pedantic than that. It's like I open-- you know, I go get my email, and maybe there'll be like 30 messages or something, and then I'll scan them and figure out which ones I want to answer. Vin: So you do actually answer that mail. Suzanne: Yeah, I post on the...on what's called the Undertow from time to time. Vin: Uh-huh. [SV laughs] The Undertow! Suzanne: [laughs] Yes. Vin: So I was somewhere-- Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: I was fooling around with something the other day, and I came across a reference to the Columbus song. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: "World Before Columbus." Suzanne: Mm-hmm. Vin: And you mentioned the word "controversy." There seems to be some sort of a minor controversy-- Suzanne: [laughs] That's right. Vin: About some political correctness or something-- Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: In this song. Suzanne: There's been a political correctness issue with this song. Vin: Yeah. Suzanne: And-- Vin: What's the song about? Suzanne: Well, the song is called "World Before Columbus," and it's basically the idea that if-- and it was written for my daugher Ruby, and the idea is that if her love were taken from me, the world would feel flat to me. So I took that idea, and that's what the "world before Columbus" means. I don't mean it literally; I mean that before...supposedly...you know, what we were taught in America, the myth is that Columbus discovered America and also discovered that the world was round. Vin: Right. Suzanne: Of course, my sister, being a fourth-grade schoolteacher, informs me that this is *not* true, that Columbus did *not* discover that the world was round, that there were other explorers who discovered that the world was round before Columbus. But when I was in third grade, I'm sorry, I don't know who I had as a teacher [laughs], she'll probably call me up and...but anyway, so then there's a couple of lines also about...where I say the world would be as cruel, would be as cruel as the world before Columbus. And some people, I think, and they didn't say this, but they were, I think, implying that they thought I was racist or something, or that I was saying something about the native Americans. And the fact is I wasn't even thinking about the native Americans, I wasn't thinking about...what I meant by the world being cruel was that world would be a flat place that you could fall off of and never return to-- Vin: Yeah. Suzanne: Surrounded by darkness on every side, with monsters, 'cause I remembered that the picture in whatever book I had been reading when I was 8, in the New York public school system, I just remember this flat world with the dragons underneath it. And to me, this was what I was thinking of when I wrote this song for Ruby. But...so a couple of people have read other things into it, and... Vin: So-- Suzanne: Yeah, and so anyway, I printed a defense of myself-- [laughs] Vin: Uh-huh, yeah. Suzanne: Saying, listen, you know...because the other thing is that racism is such a strong problem, and it's such a serious problem, that it seems not really appropriate for someone to come along and try and make me out to be a racist-- Vin: Right, right. Suzanne: When I just want to say clearly that I am not. Vin: I mean, what's your immediate response to something like that, the first time you read it, or hear it, it's just...it's so far from where you were [SV laughs] when you wrote the song. It's-- Suzanne: I know. Well, actually...I mean, this, today at dinnertime we were talking about how, what other ways could you misinterpret some of the songs I wrote. For example, my family, my sister had said we could, you know, "The Queen and the Soldier" could have been misread to be about gays in the military [they laugh] if you really wanted to stretch it. Ahem, yeah, well. Vin: Well, see you know what's happened with this whole Internet thing. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: And with all of these web sites, and discussion groups, and email, and all that kind of stuff, is that we've become this nation of instant critics. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: Y'know? Everybody with access to a keyboard and a modem and a computer and-- Suzanne: Right. Vin: Can go on...who desires to be, can become a critic, and can publish-- Suzanne: There. Vin: Their criticism-- Suzanne: Yep. Vin: And their opinion immediately. Suzanne: Right. Vin: And it goes out to X number of people, whoever happens to be subscribing to that discussion group, or whatever. Suzanne: Yeah. Vin: And I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing. You know? Suzanne: Well, you know, the thing is, people might have thought that anyway, but they might not have had the venue-- Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: To publish it, and the thing is, even when "Luka" came out, there, I got some very bizarre letters from people you wouldn't expect, who thought that I was saying somehow that children were to blame for their own abuse. Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: And some of them were even people who worked for child abuse agencies, who wrote to me telling me they thought it was a terrible song, and that I should have written a more empowering one. And this kind of thing. And so they'd really taken the whole point of the song-- Vin: Yeah. Suzanne: Completely wrong. And so, you know, at that point ten years ago, there was no Internet, but I still received, you know, these letters-- Vin: Right. Suzanne: And so there's always gonna be some people. And frankly, I don't mind defending myself. I'll come out and say exactly what I meant. And if some people do find it offensive-- Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: Then they can tell me, and it's not the way I had intended it. I'm not a racist, and it's not-- that was not my intent. Vin: Are-- Do you-- Are you hurt by that, though? When somebody misinterprets? Suzanne: I'm not hurt by it, no, because I think if a lot of people do misinterpret, even people who love the songs, and who study the songs, and who spend a lot of time with the songs, still may not read it the way that I intended it to, and it's because, you know, the songs can be really difficult. I mean, I admit that they are. I don't feel that I'm the clearest, most straightforward songwriter in the world. I'm trying to express things that are complicated. Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: So I realize that people-- so I don't feel hurt by it. I just feel that...that particular one I found offensive. 'Cause I felt that it was not...thought out. Vin: Mmm. Suzanne: And not...*true*, you know, not, just...obviously someone looking to pick a fight. [laughs] Vin: Yeah. And it just took a surface, cursory glance at the words, really, and it didn't really understand how you were using the words. Suzanne: Right. Vin: What the image was. Suzanne: And I'm not trying to teach American history-- Vin: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Suzanne: To the world or to anybody. I was using it as a device for my own idea of expressing a form of love. Vin: Mm-hmm. Suzanne: And of a way of expressing what the world would feel like to me if her love were taken from me. And I wanted to write a song to a baby that still had the dignity of a real love song, that wasn't obviously to an infant, and that's what I was thinking of, and... so that's...so maybe I should just sing this song [laughs] now that we've talked it to death. Here we go. ["World Before Columbus," acoustic version] Vin: It's a beautiful song, Suzanne. Suzanne: Thank you.
transcribed and submitted by Steve Zwanger
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