Subject: "Solitude Standing"

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Subj: MUSICAL INTERPRETATION PART 2: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-03 09:24:40 EST From: 4dm@qlink.queensu.ca (Magenta) Last month I posted a query about Undertow's take on the meaning of "Ironbound". We got a lot of very interesting action going around here, so I'll put forth another challenge since traffic around here has been kind of slow. WHAT'S EVERYONE'S TAKE ON THE MEANING OF "SOLITUDE STANDING"? (My favourite song of Suzanne's) Yes, it sounds like a trick question. The meaning seems *so* obvious it doesn't qualify as a challenge. However, what I'm looking for now is whether you guys want to pierce through the obvious meanings and get into *how* the song works -- what's the diction, how's the formal mimesis of the song, the aesthetic distance Suzanne puts between herself and the persona of the song, etc. I.D. a small inbox leading to my stirring the pot Subj: Re: MUSICAL INTERPRETATION PART 2: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-03 20:16:05 EST From: arntsent@ucs.orst.edu (Tauni Arntsen Sandy) At 9:16 AM -0500 2/3/97, Magenta wrote: >WHAT'S EVERYONE'S TAKE ON THE MEANING OF "SOLITUDE STANDING"? > >(My favourite song of Suzanne's) > Yours is an interesting question (and I've snipped the most interesting part of it :) Later today I'll give the song another listen, but I'm wondering if anyone knows what this line refers to: "palm is split, with a flower with a flame" Looking forward to thinking more about one of my favorite songs - Tauni Tauni Arntsen Sandy (arntsent@ucs.orst.edu) Ishmael's House of Web Page Design - http://www.orst.edu/~arntsent/ Wildlife Science undergraduate - Oregon State University "The sea refuses no river" - P. Townshend Subj: Re: MUSICAL INTERPRETATION PART 2: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-03 18:10:52 EST From: martin@phee.demon.co.uk (Martin Phee) >Last month I posted a query about Undertow's take on the meaning of >"Ironbound". We got a lot of very interesting action going around here, >so I'll put forth another challenge since traffic around here has been >kind of slow. > >WHAT'S EVERYONE'S TAKE ON THE MEANING OF "SOLITUDE STANDING"? > >(My favourite song of Suzanne's) > >Yes, it sounds like a trick question. The meaning seems *so* obvious it >doesn't qualify as a challenge. However, what I'm looking for now is >whether you guys want to pierce through the obvious meanings and get into >*how* the song works -- what's the diction, how's the formal mimesis of >the song, the aesthetic distance Suzanne puts between herself and the >persona of the song, etc. > >I.D. >a small inbox leading to my stirring the pot Never mind solitude standing. Can someone explain what the hell magenta's e-mail means??? Please don't use big words that the average undertower would need a dictionary to understand. Yoors ilituretlly Martin Glasgow UK ps I refuse to read anything unless it's in writing. Subj: Re: MUSICAL INTERPRETATION PART 2: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-03 20:26:40 EST From: hwarwick@macromedia.com (Henry Warwick) At 6:36 PM 2/3/97, Martin Phee wrote: >Never mind solitude standing. Can someone explain what the hell magenta's >e-mail means??? > >Please don't use big words that the average undertower would need a >dictionary to understand. > >Yoors ilituretlly > >Martin >Glasgow UK So, I guess we should all talk down to each other. I thoroughly detest such an attitude. You don't have to discuss things in a complex lexicon. However, a more complex lexicon permits the creation of more complex and finer points of the object of study. The larger your vocabulary, the greater your horizons. In the appreciation of music, a larger, specialised lexicon is not a specific necessity, except insofar as it enables you to understand or express specific perceptions regarding the music. For instance one can talk about modal chord progressions as a compositional technique common to Anglophonic folk musics, and then perhaps discuss why the Dorian mode seems to predominate, as contrasted to the Mixolydian mode, which no one seems to use. To say "Oh Don't talk all that Mixo-whatever stuff to me" isn't going to make the mixolydian mode disappear, nor is it going to make the Dorian mode any less affective ans manipulative of the listener's attentions. If you don't understand it, ask what is meant. Learn. In an information based communication system, (like an electronic email system such as this), learning is the best thing you can do. Also, significant insights can be expressed without resorting to specialised lexicons, as Buddha expressed by twirling a flower. Any specific understanding requires a specific languages, and any other understanding in another language is by necessity a translation, and translation distorts. Hence endless dusty volumes have been written about the twirling flower, but none convey the fragrance. On the same coin, I don't think the Buddha has email discussions of folk music compositional strategies in mind on that fine afternoon..... His insights were of a different nature, that day. >what's the diction, how's the formal mimesis of >the song, the aesthetic distance Suzanne puts between herself and the >persona of the song, etc. is a perfectly reasonable proposal for discussion. One that I am not terrifically interested in persuing, but I'll defend anyone's right to pursue it. HW Subj: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-03 21:40:02 EST From: D.Lowrie@BoM.GOV.AU (Mr David Lowrie) "palm is split, with a flower with a flame" I've always interpreted that line as a deliberately violent image - but the reality is that "solitude" - the person in the song - has a tattoo maybe this is a silly interpretation! I understand that song musically and in terms of images - very evocative - rather than literally i think I'd have to refer to the lyrics again properly to discuss in any detail - actually, I'd like to see the lyrics pasted on email when we have these discussions :) cheers David Lowrie Subj: RE: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-03 22:57:36 EST From: cristiai@microsoft.com (Cristian Ioneci) >she turns to me with her hand extended - >(her) palm is split, with a flower, with a flame "Her" hand extended: "she" wants to take Suzanne's hand ? "She" needs somebody ? "She" don't want to be alone anymore? Or just want to join her loneliness ... Maybe it's only the contrast between the flower (soft touch, tender, nice, gentle... a friendly sign, symbol of love) and the flame (violent, destruction, it hurts, the pain...). Cristi Subj: RE: "SOLITUDE STANDING": Munch Date: 97-02-04 00:19:10 EST From: cristiai@microsoft.com (Cristian Ioneci) Don't know if anybody else noticed about that... The Suzanne's image on the "Solitude..." CD cover ... her hands on the cheeks ... resembles a famous painting of Edvard Munch, "The Cry" -- check this out for more info: http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/munch/... " The Cry, probably his most familiar painting, is typical in its anguished expression of isolation and fear. " Isolation?... Solitude?... The flame and the fear... Dressed in black. And a silent cry for help with a flower in a split hand... So it's something deeper here... it's only the top of an iceberg... Cristi Subj: Re: MUSICAL INTERPRETATION PART 2: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-04 09:14:50 EST From: 4dm@qlink.queensu.ca (Magenta) > Never mind solitude standing. Can someone explain what the hell magenta's > e-mail means??? Oh...okay. What I meant was that the theme and content of the song seem to be apparent. I was asking for comments about *how* Suzanne conveys this. For example, if you convey an idea in words and sentences, what kinds of words and sentence structures do you use? Fragmentary bits, or elaborate Ciceronian sentences? And how much do the melodies of "Solitude Standing" reflect its theme? What about the use of rhyme, the structure of the song, etc? Hope this clarifies things a bit. I.D. Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" -- LYRICS Date: 97-02-04 09:33:24 EST From: 4dm@qlink.queensu.ca (Magenta) To facilitate responses to my message here are the lyrics: SOLITUDE STANDING Solitude stands by the window She turns her head as I walk in the room I can see by her eyes she's been waiting Standing in the slant of the late afternoon And she turns to me with her hand extended Palm is split with a flower with a flame Solitude stands in the doorway I'm struck once again by her black silhouette By her long cool stare and her silence I suddenly remember each time we've met And she turns to me with her hand extended Palm is split with a flower with a flame And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" And I turn to the crowd as they're watching They're sitting all together in the dark in the warm And I wanted to be in there among them I see how their eyes are gathered into one And she turns to me with her hand extended Palm is split with a flower with a flame And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" Solitude stands in the doorway I'm struck once again by her black silhouette By her long cool stare and her silence I suddenly remember each time we've met And she turns to me with her hand extended Palm is split with a flower with a flame Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 14:37:48 EST From: hwarwick@macromedia.com (Henry Warwick) You asked for it. Now you're in trouble. ;-) Ms Vega's lyrics below are poetic. I am no poet. (I'm a painter) I find her lyrics (as with any good lyric or poetry) evocative, and generally tend to form connexions in my mind, sometimes, these connexions are images, sounds, or entire texts, or people I know. so, my responses follow the lyric. >SOLITUDE STANDING Title= northern romantic tradition of the figure ground relationship in Northern European painting. Good book on it - hard to find, but interesting. The figure is a heroic and romantic figure set as a solitary individual in an often bewildering and beautiful (later more threatening) scene of nature. The Hudson Valley School painters took on this tradition and made huge canvases of the New York Hudson River Valley, where there was always one tiny figure obscured somewhere in the endless oak forests. Hence: Standing= individual, Individual is one self selected out of the many, thusly: alone in the world, therefore: Solitude. By this logic Solitude MUST stand, and in this way, the statement Solitude Standing is a bit of a redundancy. >Solitude stands by the window >She turns her head as I walk in the room Statements of interiority. Inner workings relative to the outer experience. The room has a window, Solitude is standing by it. Is she looking out the window? Or is she simply standing near it and is distracted by Ms Vega's entrance? >I can see by her eyes she's been waiting Solitude has an attitude- what Solitude doesn't understand is that there is nothing wrong with waiting; it's just no great honour. >Standing in the slant of the late afternoon Image: Painting by Edward Hopper: Nude by a Window. Image: Film Noir cliche- does the window have blinds? Is that what forms the slant? Also: memory of the song: Another Day by Roy Harper: "I'm at the door, she needs to score." A song of lost love, and isolation. > >And she turns to me with her hand extended >Palm is split with a flower with a flame Christian and Buddhist archetypes. Palm is split (as in the process of crucifixion as depicted in Western Art) the flower of Buddhist wisdom, the flame of Christian faith. The monad (palm) is split with flower (wisdom) and flame (faith). Also reminds me of a great song by the Severed Heads- "Mambo Fist Miasma" from the record "Dead Eyes Open". "Wings of fire I go through houses Touching lips, holding hands Speaking in sheets of flame I go through the air to the circle of hands- The circle of hands, and the crowd below- Let me touch the flesh, let me warm the hearts" Interesting how Mambo Fist Miasma uses much of the same imagery- hands, crowds below, warm.... The Severed Heads sound NOTHING like Ms Vega- imagine Nine Inch Nails sans the adolescence and angst. >Solitude stands in the doorway >I'm struck once again by her black silhouette But it was Ms Vega who was entering the room, and Solitude was by the window. This reinforces the interiority of the lyric- solitude is not separate from Ms Vega. Ms Vega and Solitude must therefore be the same. >By her long cool stare and her silence >I suddenly remember each time we've met When one sees ones own solitude as another person, the mind can choose to be Solitude or Union or whatever- such is the working of the mind. It can be seen as pathological projection or as the mind working in control of the emotions. Thinking of my own Zen practice where the mind itself is watched. >And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" Reminds me of alchemical incantations. >And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" Reminds me of "Hope in a Darkened Heart" by Virginia Astley. Excellent record. Has very happy chirpy songs with the most dismal lyrics. Features David Sylvian on title track. >As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear >And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" This is where Ms Vega grinds me. Ms Vega feels the imprint of fear from her Solitude. She never thought of finding her here. Where? In the interior? Or does it just "sound cool"? >And I turn to the crowd as they're watching What crowd? Why the definitive article- there has been no previous mention, so is this The Crowd as a platonic object or an existential force, or was the previous stanza regarding the crowd edited out, and she just forgot to change tense? >They're sitting all together in the dark in the warm Womb? Prenatal? >And I wanted to be in there among them Go back to the source of unconditional universal love and nourishment? >I see how their eyes are gathered into one As before conception- all is one- in Qabbalistic terms, It is from the undifferentiated Crown of God (Kether) that the Tree of Life descends through the various sephira until it is finally born in the materiality and differentiations of Malkuth. Or, in Buddhism, the koan: "What was your name before your mother was born?" Asking for demonstration of essence..... Placing the song in an interesting space. I like her lyrics, and consider them poetic. Lyrics are an interesting thing, because they have musical baggage that straight poetry doesn't have to deal with or lean on. A Romantic piece (in the artistic sense) of the internal workings of the subject struggling with the psychological reality of individuation (I am me- I am alone), and the spiritual reality of ontological monism (The universe is one and all distinctions are purely illusory). Sometimes I wonder "why do I know all this crap?" :-) HW Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 16:53:39 EST From: rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com (Rob Walters) Hello everyone, Henry Warwick wrote: [some interesting observations snipped] >Hence: Standing= individual, Individual is one self selected >out of the many, thusly: alone in the world, therefore: Solitude. >By this logic Solitude MUST stand, and in this way, the >statement Solitude Standing is a bit of a redundancy. I've always assumed that Solitude is a representation of death, or the 'Death Figure.' And IMHO, this song works much better than "Thin Man" as a commentary on "brushes with death," as SV put it in the interview with Vin Sclesa. Of course, in "Thin Man," "He's desiring me, and I'm resisting him, saying 'Sorry pal - not ready.'" >Image: Film Noir cliche- does the window have blinds? >Is that what forms the slant? Again, I'm aiming for a simple explanation here: the sun angle on the floor in the late afternoon forms the 'slant.' A nice choice of phrasing, BTW: "standing in the slant of the late afternoon." "Late afternoon" also works as a tie-in to twilight, dusk, coming of night, etc. - lots of associations there with mortality. >>And she turns to me with her hand extended >>Palm is split with a flower with a flame >Christian and Buddhist archetypes. How about heaven vs. hell? (Christian archetype, I know). Death is inviting her ("hand extended"), or trying to lure her in. >>Solitude stands in the doorway >Ms Vega >and Solitude must therefore be the same. Interesting, but I don't agree with this. I prefer the explanation that it's just another instance or encounter she's had with this figure. >>By her long cool stare and her silence >>I suddenly remember each time we've met >When one sees ones own solitude as another person, >the mind can choose to be Solitude or Union or >whatever- such is the working of the mind. Huh?? Seems to me she's recalling each time she's felt the presence of death. >>As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear >>And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" >This is where Ms Vega grinds me. Ms Vega feels the imprint of >fear from her Solitude. She never thought of finding her >here. Where? In whatever situation she's in when she's had that feeling - looking through a window, in a doorway, i.e. 'at odd moments and in unexpected places.' How is this 'grinding'? The phrase "imprint of fear" is one of the most effective in the entire song - describes perfectly the cold chill of sensing one's own mortality. Sort of like the feeling of the "hand ... on my back" in "Thin Man." >>And I turn to the crowd as they're watching >What crowd? In my interpretation, those who have 'gone' before. >>And I wanted to be in there among them >Go back to the source of unconditional universal love >and nourishment? Well, sort of. The 'seductive desire' for death, if you will. I may be reading too much into it, but go back and read her comments about "Thin Man" from the Vin Sclesa interview - very similar subjects, in my view. >A Romantic piece (in the artistic sense) of the internal workings >of the subject struggling with the psychological reality of >individuation Hmmmm.... An interesting viewpoint, but that's not what I get from it. Who knows what 'Solitude Standing' is really about, but I prefer a more, shall we say, straightforward approach to interpreting it. But thanks for providing some unique perspectives! -Rob ---------------------------------- rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com *any opinion expressed or information provided is my own and not that of my employer* Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 17:11:13 EST From: martin@phee.demon.co.uk (Martin Phee) JEEEESUS CHRIST!!!!!!! I have never read so much bullshit nonsense in all my life. Ms Vega must be laughing her pants off at your last message (that is if she wasn't totally pissed off, as I was, at having your inane ramblings imposed on her screen). Get a life you asshole - if you honestly believe she went through the thought process that you suggest then you're obviously the only thing worse than an asshole - AN AMERICAN ASSHOLE. Your nation elected a geriatric actor (a bloody awful one at that) as president of THE Superpower. If the Russians HAD attacked he'd probably have circled the wagons. Suzanne wrote the song, recorded it and sat back waiting for the dollars to roll in. If you want to hear really great lyrics, have a listen to Loudon Wainwright III - YOU DON'T NEED A THESAURUS!!!!!!!! How many of you tossers actually subscribe to this list? You're obviously not alone. Martin Glasgow UK Subj: re: SOLITUDE STANDING Date: 97-02-04 19:55:40 EST From: murray@lynes.powernet.co.uk (Murray J. Lynes) Hiya folks! I'm a list newbie here so forgive any blunders.... I've been trying to come up with my ideas for "Solitude Standing" (one of my favourite of Suzanne's songs!) After giving the video a run through again tonight I've picked up on the significance of each band member being featured alone (solo??) and also the fact that there are occasional shots of Suzanne twirling away in black clothing, all swirling skirts and self-absorption in that room alone. (A representation of Solitude herself?) It seems to be less "story-oriented"than the one for "Marlene On The Wall" but there's elements there for sure.... Just MHO anyway. M. Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 20:11:13 EST From: hwarwick@macromedia.com (Henry Warwick) At 3:43 PM 2/4/97, Rob Walters wrote: >Henry Warwick wrote: >[some interesting observations snipped] Thanks! >I've always assumed that Solitude is a representation of death, or the >'Death Figure.' I thought of that, but it seemed too easy, and the confusions over who's who pretty much nailed it for me. >Again, I'm aiming for a simple explanation here: I wasn't trying to explain anything, I was simply saying how the lyrics strike me. >"Late afternoon" >also works as a tie-in to twilight, dusk, coming of night, etc. - lots >of associations there with mortality. Good point there. >How about heaven vs. hell? (Christian archetype, I know). Too easy, and what little I know about her, not likely. >>>Solitude stands in the doorway >>Ms Vega >>and Solitude must therefore be the same. > >Interesting, but I don't agree with this. I prefer the explanation >that it's just another instance or encounter she's had with this figure. I would have too, but there's no connexion- one moment Vega's just entered the room (presumably at the door) and Solitude is at the window. Next thing know old Jed's a millionaire and Solitude is at the door. Either they changed places, or they are the same person. >Huh?? Seems to me she's recalling each time she's felt the presence >of death. Mebbee. Mebbee not. >In whatever situation she's in when she's had that feeling - looking >through a window, in a doorway, i.e. 'at odd moments and in unexpected >places.' How is this 'grinding'? The phrase "imprint of fear" is one >of the most effective in the entire song Huh. Interesting. I think it's one of the weakest. >>What Crowd? >In my interpretation, those who have 'gone' before. It also reminded me of the Crowd in "Day in the Life" by the Beatles. >Well, sort of. The 'seductive desire' for death, if you will. I may >be reading too much into it, but go back and read her comments about >"Thin Man" from the Vin Scelsa interview - very similar subjects, in >my view. I think it's a different song and not likely to have the same content. >Hmmmm.... An interesting viewpoint, but that's not what I get from it. Cool. God Bless different viewpoints, unless you're Martin Phee.... ;-D >Who knows what 'Solitude Standing' is really about, but I prefer a more, >shall we say, straightforward approach to interpreting it. Cool. I am rarely straightforward in dealing with art. Troubleshooting problems with a recalcitrant computer- I'm straightforward. Listening to music, I am just as elliptical and inconsistent as I care to be. (I like industrial ambient stuff like :zoviet*france:, nux vomica, and SPK as well...) In fact- playing right now: 1. Solitude Standing- Suzanne Vega (obvious research purposes) 2. Dead Eyes Open/Come Visit the Big Bigot- Severed Heads (a must have. Mambo Fist Miasma is ART. And 20 deadly diseases gets me dancin'...) 3. Songs on the Eastern Wind- Kitka (GLORIOUS female vocal group- sings Bulgarian, Croatian folk songs.) 4. Shouting at the Ground- :zoviet*france: (another must have- industrial ambience at its best. Imagine a factory at the bottom of a giant canyon. Grinding, smelly, yet- utterly beautiful in a scary scary way.) 5. Thrak! - King Crimson (Crimson Rules. Fripp is the best, and Bruford's a GOD.) ;-) > But thanks >for providing some unique perspectives! Thank you! I do my best... sincerely, HW ======================================================== "I'm just full of good ideas- and here's another one!" -stereolab, "International Colouring Contest" ======================================================== Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 20:59:50 EST From: D.Lowrie@BoM.GOV.AU (Mr David Lowrie) >SOLITUDE STANDING Title= northern romantic tradition of the figure ground relationship in Northern European painting. Good book on it - hard to find, but interesting. The figure is a heroic and romantic figure set as a solitary individual in an often bewildering and beautiful (later more threatening) scene of nature. The Hudson Valley School painters took on this tradition and made huge canvases of the New York Hudson River Valley, where there was always one tiny figure obscured somewhere in the endless oak forests. Hence: Standing= individual, Individual is one self selected out of the many, thusly: alone in the world, therefore: Solitude. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was aware of the tradition (the motif of a solitary figure) in painting - but never seen it defined as "Solitude Standing". My guess is that Suzanne was thinking of this tradition - particular in the context of the title of the song - when she put some of the lyrics down. It's interesting to associate the lyrics with paintings - (such as your example, Hoppers: Nude by a Window) because Suzanne's use of images in her lyrics is very visual in a painterly sense, - or cinematic -, may be more accurate (for example when Suzanne describes solitude personified as "I can see by her eyes she's been waiting Standing in the slant of the late afternoon" I imagine the effect is the slant of the light across the room through venetian blinds - but at the same time the scene is surreal and dramatic - as the phrase "slant of the afternoon" suggests. Other images in the song are very vivid to me (though I'm not sure I understand them) - the refrain "turns to me her hand extended, palm is split with a flower, with a flame" has the same effect of a recurring image in a film (or video clip - a repeated image blinking in a loop effect). The use of words such as "imprint of fear" gives the whole thing a subtle nightmarish quality; and I guess it is surreal and nightmarish - because she is seeing herself as solitude personified and is confronting this. Unlike HW, I'm not fussed that suddenly in the song we have a Suzanne turning to a crowd of people as it seems "consistent" with the nature of dream images. "And I turn to the crowd as they're watching They're sitting all together in the dark in the warm And I wanted to be in there among them I see how their eyes are gathered into one" Suzanne is an excellent poet :) - and again these images (particularly the reference to the eyes of the crowd and how their eyes "gathered into one") are perfect surrealist motifs (if you like) and very cinematic - if anyone remembers the "dream sequence" Salvadore Dali directed for the Hitchcock film "Spellbound" - that's along the lines of how I picture some of the images in Suzannes songs. One final thought - in writing about lyrics we often forget the other half of a song - the music the lyrics accompany - maybe because music is less easy to describe effectively (at least in a general terms rather than technical sense - and then you are not really describing the emotional effect of music anyway). But one very powerful musical thing that happens in this song in my opinion occurs as the song moves into the folowing passage: "And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" - through that refrain the bass line becomes a descending progression and seemingly falls "through the floor" - the effect is to make the vocal hang hauntingly and chant-like in the air. To my ears it's a very beautiful and powerful because of the contrast after the preceeding verses which build up a steady staccato rhythm made up of a call and response accent pattern on each alternate beat against the sound of Suzanne's accoustic guitar (I suggest you listen to it! - much better). The effect is great; a very lovely piece of music - it makes you realise that, even at this point in her career Suzanne clearly understands so much about maximizing the effect of her soft vocal, how to achieve the right dynamics, and how to convey (or evoke) a subtle and dark mood (in this instance) in her music. In her music it is apparent that Suzanne loves the surreal, the dark foreboding, contrasts, juxtapositions and contradictions, chant-like rhythms, descending bass-lines and wonderful poetic images. Music sweet music. And I love her for that. Cheers y'all David Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" Date: 97-02-04 22:48:42 EST From: drutherf@gdc.com (Dave Rutherford) Heya all, This thread has been very interesting. The interpretation of the first vs. second verses as saying (the narrator) == Solitude is very good; and correct, I think, but not in the sense stated. (I say "the narrator" to make clear that I have no idea whether the character in the song is Suzanne, although I suspect it might be.) I see the three verses of the song as three photographs in a life. The first two are relatively undifferentiated; I can come upon solitude, or solitude can come upon me. Throughout the song, Solitude is just an acquaintance; someone you run into and recognize from time to time. Someone who, after time, becomes comforting, not because of any intrinsic characteristics but merely out of familiarity. Solitude, in this song, is just a personified projection of an emotional state. (I also disagree with those who interpret Solitude as death. The metaphor can't really be taken in that direction.) The third verse is the most telling. What is the crowd? Where? What gathers their eyes together into one? This is clearly not a purposeless, random crowd, or they wouldn't all be looking at the same thing. This seems, to me, to be (the narrator) expressing what it's like to be onstage. (*I have already gone completely conjectural; I don't really have any idea what anyone feels performing; disclaimer et cetera*) But my interpretation here is that this is another moment, another performance, she's on stage and all eyes are on her, but even here, she is distanced from the group; Solitude visits in spite of the multitudes. Flower with a flame? Solitude is comforting, but embracing it (or her) is ultimately destructive. (Perhaps you need to have the right sort of personality to find comfort in being alone, but I know too that such personalities exist.) To me, the flameflower is a symbol of this dangerous attraction. It may be remembered by some that I like straightforward interpertations (Occam's Razor and all that :-) but I hope these opinions are not too simpleminded to be of interest. Cheers, Dave Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-04 23:02:44 EST From: bobking@gate.net (Robert King) Hey, Marty, guess what -- we won! Get over it. Martin "a prick if there ever was one" Phee wrote: > Get a life you asshole - if you honestly believe she went > through the thought process that you suggest then you're obviously the only > thing worse than an asshole - AN AMERICAN ASSHOLE. Your nation elected a > geriatric actor (a bloody awful one at that) as president of THE > Superpower. If the Russians HAD attacked he'd probably have circled the > wagons. OK, well if you can explain away both Maggie Thatcher and John "a Monty Python sketch waiting to happen" Major, go ahead. But on somebody else's list, please. > Suzanne wrote the song, recorded it and sat back waiting for the dollars to > roll in. Yeah, those major folk music dollars, which she obviously *expected* to roll in since her first album had gone quintuple-platinum, swept the Grammys and placed her on the covers of Time, Newsweek, Rolling Stone and Field & Stream on the very same day. Obviously you've uncovered the real Suzanne, the cynical, materialistic pop mastermind who churns out the hits with one hand while counting the dollars with the other. The woman who made Madonna cry. That's the *true* Suzanne. Congratulations on unraveling the puzzle. > If you want to hear really great lyrics, have a listen to Loudon Wainwright > III - YOU DON'T NEED A THESAURUS!!!!!!!! OK, Martin, but you start first. We'll be along real soon, we promise. Now where were we? -- Bob, not at all amused P.S. If you're really British, wouldn't you say *arsehole*? Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" -- LYRICS Date: 97-02-05 02:34:58 EST From: strauss@mst.fh-kl.de (Manfred Strauss) Hello i'm Manfred. Manfred Strauss from Zweibruecken Germany. I'm a listener of Suzanne for quite a while and i love most of her songs. So here is my opinion about the Song: > SOLITUDE STANDING First impression: "Who is solitude? A girl? A man? A symbole?" > Solitude stands by the window > She turns her head as I walk in the room > I can see by her eyes she's been waiting > Standing in the slant of the late afternoon "Ah. Solitude is obviously a woman she has a head and eyes so she can't be a symbol. can she? > And she turns to me with her hand extended > Palm is split with a flower with a flame "What is this? her palm is split ?! With a flower or a flame? Or with both? Is it real or a tatoo?" > Solitude stands in the doorway > I'm struck once again by her black silhouette > By her long cool stare and her silence > I suddenly remember each time we've met "O.K. Suzy allready knows her. Solitude what a strange name for a person." > And she turns to me with her hand extended > Palm is split with a flower with a flame > > And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" > And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" > As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear > And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" Why fear if she's trying to help? Why shouldn't she be here? Where the hell are we? > And I turn to the crowd as they're watching > They're sitting all together in the dark in the warm > And I wanted to be in there among them > I see how their eyes are gathered into one O.K. Suzanne is a singer. so she has appearances very often, this crowd must be the audience! This explains the fear and doesn't it explain the solitude?! Of course the solitude is a symbol! Why should we expect solitude amongst the hubbub of a gig with all the hectic and nervous people around. > And she turns to me with her hand extended > Palm is split with a flower with a flame > > And she says, "I've come to set a twisted thing straight" > And she says, "I've come to lighten this dark heart" Ah solitude holds both, the flower, the happy things and the flame, the fear of failure. An artist needs to concentrate she shouldn't be twisted, hectic or nervous. And she needs to be glad to express herself. a dark heart won't help. Solitude will help her to gain those concentration and selfconfidence she needs. > As she takes my wrist I feel her imprint of fear > And I say, "I've never thought of finding you here" Well but the Solitude also makes her concious of her fears. And it is still a surprise to have this quiet moments at a show! > Solitude stands in the doorway > I'm struck once again by her black silhouette > By her long cool stare and her silence > I suddenly remember each time we've met > > And she turns to me with her hand extended > Palm is split with a flower with a flame But knowing all this won't help in anyway. It's allways a struggle to go out there and sing your soul away. To get the flower through the flame! BTW.: I think an artist always has their own interpetation of the song. Otherwise it won't be possible to write or sing. But this is not the only truth. Every listener has also an own interpretation which is for them the right one. some are closer to the artists' own point of view some are farther away but none of them is really wrong! Subj: Solitude Standing Date: 97-02-05 08:32:37 EST From: 106450.1043@compuserve.com (Jill Chan) I have another interpretation of SS. The narrator has a problem with her sexuality. Solitude is the narrator's inner life. Solitude is making her choose between a flower or a flame which can be taken as symbols of the sexes. And until the narrator can choose, she'll never be part of the crowd. Jill Subj: solitude standing Date: 97-02-05 10:01:59 EST From: JJENIK@aol.com you go, bob king. i think marty's on the wrong list as well. i've always interpreted solitude standing, the "easy" way: solitude = death, the grim reaper, et al. and thought that the song overall evoked the desire to control or choose the time of one's death (suicide) versus a random act. setting a twisted thing straight, lightening this dark heart. death as a release, a relief. then again, i'm a little maudlin anyway. :) and thank you, all, for the incredibly complex interpretations that never fail to make me review SV's work and come out with more than I started. --jocelyn Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda JERK) Date: 97-02-05 10:29:13 EST From: guida@mail.telepac.pt (Guida Fonseca) Well .... I'm really really confused over here ! What has this list become ? A Circus ? I'm going to have an examination on English next week so please, please, I really need to clear my puzzled mind. Is it *asshole* or *arshole* ? - Major existential crisis over here. I mean, it's definitely not a posh word to use, but it may come in hand !!!! What's the matter with you ? Wnat some good poetry ??? Listen to Spice girls' album.... really good poetry, deep inner thoughts, not at all concerned with money..... Guida. Subj: Solitude Standing Date: 97-02-05 10:34:58 EST From: Unique212@aol.com Hi folks, I may be in the minority here, but I've always thought this song is to be taken at face value. Solitude is just that, solitude, personified as a woman with whom the narrator is having a conversation. Perhaps not coincidentally, Solitude is a woman's first name in Spanish -- Soledad. (Other conceptually similar first names: Mercedes, which means Mercy, Caridad which means Charity, Dolores which means (I think) Sadness. Gosh, when one thinks about it, very heavy names to lay upon a kid!) The crowd is a concert audience, and the performer both wants to be on display and hidden among the crowd. The palm split by a flower by a flame -- that's a bit more esoteric, most likely Buddhist imagery. I'm thinking of statues of Buddha holding a lotus flower. "And she says 'I've come to set a twisted thing straight', And she says 'I've come to lighten this dark heart And she takes my wrist, I feel her imprint of fear And I said 'I never thought of finding you here' " -- . -- this is about the simultaneously healing and dangerous aspects of solitude; it's necessary to give one perspective, but too much can give one 'stage fright' about life. But hey, what do I know? Another random opinion... And let's not forget the tune really ROCKS!! (Sorry, Magenta, couldn't resist....) U212 Subj: Re: solitude standing Date: 97-02-05 10:52:48 EST From: rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com (Rob Walters) Hello everyone, (and welcome back, Sharon Jennings - a name from the past!) Jocelyn wrote: >you go, bob king. i think marty's on the wrong list as well. Yup. Either that, or he's a "troll" who likes to sit back and watch us get all indignant about his rantings.... >i've always interpreted solitude standing, the "easy" way: solitude = death, >the grim reaper, et al >setting a twisted thing straight, lightening this dark heart. death as a >release, a relief. Exactly. I don't understand the feeling that this interpretation is "too easy." Some of the more esoteric readings are fascinating to hear, though, and that's what this group is for, to a certain extent. Who knows, maybe Suzanne did sit around and think about the imagery in terms of the tradtion of Northern European painting.... :-) I *do* agree that the opposing image of "solitude" vs. "the crowd" may serve as a double entendre - sort of a 'found' metaphor for "the artist" vs. "the audience" in addtion to the primary meaning. >the song overall evoked the desire >to control or choose the time of one's death (suicide) versus a random act. That's a good point. The "I wanted to be in there among them" line works in this context. -Rob ---------------------------------- rwalters@lafayette.unocal.com *any opinion expressed or information provided is my own and not that of my employer* Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda long) Date: 97-02-05 13:23:33 EST From: hwarwick@macromedia.com (Henry Warwick) Mr Mok writes: >Suzanne's detached singing (her usual style, admittedly, but she makes no >attempt towards urgency as she does in "In Liverpool" or "Birth-day") >is a formal mimetic tool to convey the idea of solitude. OK. > >I take the title as being a straight-forward personification. Agreed. > Solitude is being made into a reverse Boethian figure who comes to the suffering >individual to "comfort" him/her. I'm not to sure about the Boethian stuff, but basically I agree. >Not distracted -- "I can see by her eyes she's been waiting". You're correct. >> >Standing in the slant of the late afternoon >> Image: Painting by Edward Hopper: Nude by a Window. > >Solitude, being a personified abstract, probably would be quite dressed, >especially considering the very unsexual, guarded, untrusting nature of >solitude. Completely agree that Solitude would be dressed. But take a gander at the painting by Hopper. The woman standing by the window is stark nikkid, but she seems so alone, so solitary (as much of his work conveys) that what she's (not) wearing is largely irrelevent. He did another one of a woman sitting on a bed next to a window, and it communicates the same detached alienation that Hopper (and Ms Vega) are so adept at describing. (Interestingly, Hopper's wife, Jo, was the model in almost all of his paintings, even into her old age. From what I've read their relationship was less than optimal, although it lasted until they died.) HW Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING" (kinda JERK) Date: 97-02-06 04:59:08 EST From: swadzra@uni-muenster.de (Rolf Swadzba) Hi everybody! Guida wrote: I'm really really confused over here ! What has this list become ? A Circus ? I totally agree with you, I mean the question about this list having become a circus. The discussions about Suzanne's lyrics are great, because they open up new perspectives and interpretations that are diferent from mine (and I won't add mine concerning SOLITUDE STANDING here!). I just can't understand why some folks have to be rude or ridicule other people for opening up their minds! Come on, this is a list for discussions on Suzanne's work and that is what you get (which is great!). All those people on the list who don't like that: Why are you here anyway???? (This is supposed to be a serious question, not an attack!) All the best to all of you! Rolf Subj: Re: Solitude Standing Date: 97-02-06 15:33:51 EST From: janvolkers@digitaal.nl (jan volkers) >...Solitude is just that, solitude, .... >U212 Hi unique person 212! Most of Suzanne's songs are not understandable for me and that's o.k. The beauty of real poetry is that it goes beyond words, that it lets me feel things. I do not like interpretations of lyrics other than those which just 'click in' naturally. Yours does that with me by your sayings about solitude. It got to me, like Suzanne's lyrics do. So thanx for this reaction. Jan Subj: Re: Solitude Standing Date: 97-02-06 20:30:28 EST From: arntsent@ucs.orst.edu (Tauni Arntsen Sandy) At 10:27 AM -0500 2/5/97, Unique212@aol.com wrote: >I may be in the minority here, but I've always thought this song is to be >taken at face value. I have to agree with you there. This song is one of Suzanne's most simply deciphered songs. I'm quite satisfied with a literal interpretation of it. That doesn't mean I like it any less, of course. It's one of my favorites! :) And yes, the tune _is_ awesome. The rhythm is a bit too fast for walking (I'm slow) but it somehow reminds me of a rapid heartbeat. Just my own highly subjective 2 cents - Tauni "Notice the waves, each moving in its own order. Predictable...unchanging. But drop in a single stone and see how the pattern changes. Everything around it is altered." -- Delenn (re: Japanese stone garden), "The Gathering" Subj: Re: Solitude Standing Date: 97-02-07 19:53:29 EST From: ccorreia@mail.telepac.pt (Raquel) Hi all! I had not barged (sp?) in before, because I have never seen the video for Solitude Standing - can you believe that? :( On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:27:32 -0500 (EST), Unique212 wrote: >I may be in the minority here, but I've always thought this song is to be >taken at face value. Solitude is just that, solitude, personified as a woman >with whom the narrator is having a conversation. I agree with you, but I'm actually writing to make a correction a little off topic: > Perhaps not coincidentally, >Solitude is a woman's first name in Spanish -- Soledad. Actually, I think Soledad corresponds to the portuguese "saudade", which is the emotion you feel when you miss somebody or something (is there a word for it in english? other than "missing", I mean..) > (Other conceptually similar first names: Mercedes, which means Mercy, Caridad which means >Charity, Dolores which means (I think) Sadness. Nope. It means Pain. > Gosh, when one thinks about it, very heavy names to lay upon a kid!) You bet! :) (Arguments snipped) Ok, I'll shut up! :) Best wishes: **Raquel "Eowyn" Correia** Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-08 15:39:27 EST From: Hugo.Westerlund@ipm.ki.se (Hugo Westerlund) Please skip if you hate esoteric intellectualism :-) "palm is split, with a flower with a flame" I always pictured it this way: If you're on the verge of falling asleep -- or dreaming -- a hand held up with the fingers spread might look both like a flower, with the fingers as petals, or as a flame with licking tongues. In this way, two symbols of different sides of Solitude -- the killing fire and the life-bringing flower -- are merged into another powerful symbol, the hand, that seems to hold a special fascination for Suzanne (cf. Days of Open Hand). The hand in itself has this double nature -- it's both caring, like the hand of a nurse or a healer, and dangerous like a murderer's hand (cf. "give sb. a helping hand" versus "raise one's hand against sb."). An open hand is also a sign that you come in peace. And finally, a hand has the power to take you in its grip. If you'd like to take this interpretation a bit further, you could say that solitude, incubation, has a purifying quality that is associated with death and re-birth, for instance during initiation rites when the old person, perhaps the child, has to die to give way to something new, like a grown man or woman. The flower is born out of the dead remnants of plants that lived before, just like Phoenix rises anew from the ashes. Solitude, like Shiva, is both destroyer and creator. " And I turn to the crowd as they're watching They're sitting all together in the dark in the warm And I wanted to be in there among them I see how their eyes are gathered into one" To go on with this jungian line of interpretation, the crowd could be those who have never known solitude, separation, and are thus undifferentiated, united in primitive participation mystique. The subject feels the regressive pull and wants once again to be in there among them, but Solitude, as a Psychopompos (conductor of souls) has come to lighten the subject's dark heart. The spark of consciousness that Solitude comes with is like the flaming sword in the hand of the angel that drove Adam and Eve out of Paradise and it forces the subject to carry on along the arduous path of individuation. To me, Solitude is not a malevolent figure. Scary, yes, but also comforting. I like Solitude, just like I know Suzanne does. To know her is the very essence of being alive, for better or worse. Later, /Hugo --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo G. Westerlund Phone/fax: +46-8-15 98 68 * Privacy? PGP cryptography public key available at request * Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-09 06:14:48 EST From: moshe@dorsai.org (Moshe Feder) Hugo Westerlund wrote: > Please skip if you hate esoteric intellectualism :-) > > "palm is split, with a flower with a flame" > > I always pictured it this way: If you're on the verge of falling asleep -- > or dreaming -- a hand held up with the fingers spread might look both like a > flower, with the fingers as petals, or as a flame with licking tongues. An interesting interpretation, Hugo, and one I wouldn't have thought of. I've always found this to be one of the most powerful images in Suzanne's work. I tend to see it in the extra-vividly bright colors you find in Hindu religious art. (It also reminds me of some of the imagery in a surreal Louis Malle film called "Black Moon.") Having said that, I have to admit that I've long been bothered by the lack of precision in the image. Knowing SV, it's probably a deliberate ambiguity, but it still bugs me. Does "with a flower with a flame" mean that the flame is IN the flower, or that the flower itself is burning, or are the flower and flame separate elements, perhaps appearing in succession or alternation? I'd be curious for your (or other Undertowers') opinion. Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-09 14:59:56 EST From: G.Black@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK (Gregory Black) Hi, Well, I always thought of the 'flower with a flame' as the half-comfort that some people get from isolation - that they don't risk pain from other people ('safety' is the flower), but at the same time their isolation 'burns' them, as it also hurts to be alone. That old Roxy music song (ok, maybe from someone earlier, I'm not sure) says that 'loneliness is a crowded room' which is what the S.S. song certainly seems to say, that even (especially, in fact) in a crowd the 'narrator' in the song sees how isolated they are, or wants to be. Well, thats my burble for now. greg. p.s. I will post off a copy of the UK national lottery appearance to Stuart Weitzman soon, who will make a few more for people who are interested. Subj: Re: "SOLITUDE STANDING"? Date: 97-02-11 18:10:58 EST From: Bruce_Miyashita@mckinsey.com (Bruce Miyashita) Hugo: I thought your ideas on Solitude Standing were very interesting. In particular, your ideas on the shape of the hand: Start cut------------- "palm is split, with a flower with a flame" I always pictured it this way: If you're on the verge of falling asleep -- or dreaming -- a hand held up with the fingers spread might look both like a flower, with the fingers as petals, or as a flame with licking tongues. End cut-------------- The flower/flame could also be the pattern of the lifelines on the palm of the hand. It's interesting how often Suzanne has written about how your body or parts of your body can seem inanimate or set apart from yourself and how inanimate things can seem alive (e.g. the doll in "As a Child").