What does that image of kids playing in money mean to you?

I think the line in the dream was "the children are begging for God." And there's a double meaning to that. One is that they're begging for money for God. Like alms for the church. And I'm not Catholic or Christian. I don't go to church. So I don't understand why I would have that dream. But on the other hand "the children are begging for God" is asking for salvation.

It seemed to me that it was me and my brothers and sisters playing on the steps of this church. My stepfather's father was a minister, and that might have something to do with it. It's all very dense, personal stuff.

I can't give you a better answer than that.

Is it necessary for a songwriter to have a complete grasp of the meaning of a song?

You can't possibly. I don't think you can ever really know. And if you think you do, I think you're mistaken. Some people go, "If she doesn't know what it's about, who's supposed to know?" But the fact is that it will make sense in a certain way. It might not make logical sense and at this point in time, but it makes sense... in a sense. [Laughs]

Leonard Cohen's songs are like that to me. A lot of the songs, I don't know what he means, but you get a sense of what he's talking about, pieces of his life, but you don't know what the whole story is. But it's okay, to me. I still feel that I know this man from the pieces that he's given me. And when I met him, it was confirmed. I felt I knew him as though he were a friend of mine. Which is not always the case.

I understand to a point, but there seems to be something bigger about it. I love the line, "All feelings fall into the big space / swept up like garbage on the weekend."

[Laughter] I think a lot about feelings, which is unusual. Most people feel their feelings and I think about them. I'm constantly trying to become more articulate with them. And to feel them as well. I think for a long time I did not feel them. As a way of protecting myself. You learn to disassociate yourself, so that your feelings seem to be out there somewhere. As I get older and more comfortable with myself, they're coming back into me as opposed to being out there. As opposed to "Small Blue Thing" where it's something abstract that can float around.

And that seems like the real challenge, to translate abstract feelings into language people can understand.

That is the challenge. How do you make it accessible to people? That's why I'm always pleased when kids like my songs. They like "The Queen and The Soldier," they like "Luka," or "Tom's Diner." They'll send me pictures of the diner, or the queen sitting in the diner. They mix it all up. It makes me feel that I've done a good job if I can reach people from all different levels. That's why I was pleased that "Tom's Diner" did what it did, cause suddenly all these black kids in the neighborhood where I grew up in New York were listening to my songs. So it had this impact, and I'm happy when I feel that the songs can go into all different levels of society. That's what I'm aiming for.

When writing, do you ever feel that something is too abstract, and that people won't get it?

Sometimes I feel that way, but then I think if I censored myself everytime I did that... I used to go on a long, rambling apology that nobody will understand what this song is about, but, oh well. They are kind of code- like. A lot of them are kind of knitted-up, crocheted, and bundled up. "Knight Moves" was stolen from bits of conversations. But some people love that song. They love the chorus. They don't quite know what the verses are about, but it means something to them. It resonates. So I just throw it out there. If they like it, they like it, and if they hate it, they hate it.

Your singing style draws attention to your words. It draws people in, and makes them want to listen.

Yeah. I'd like to expand more with my singing. I can sing much more emotionally than I do.

I assumed that was very consciously directed--

Well, it was, too. I'm singing words and I want people to hear the words.

And you said once that you sing the way kids sing when they are making up songs.

To me it was unaffected. As I child, I liked Astrid Gilberto's voice, because there was no vibrato, she wasn't making a big, huge deal, she wasn't making a statement, she was just singing. And to me that was very beautiful. I still like that, although lately I've found a little bit of vibrato creeping in. Just a little bit. Sometimes I even sing out more, so my style is probably changing.

Is there any set of chord changes that you would consider a signature for you?

I once had a big argument with my band because they got tired of hearing me play A minor, I think it was. Was it A minor or E minor?

Are you using three fingers or two?

[Laughs] Three fingers.

That would probably be A minor.

A minor. Yeah. They got sick of hearing that one chord. They said, "Every single song has that chord. Can't we have some other chord other than that?" And I got mad. I said, "I think all the mysteries of life come in A minor." As far as I was concerned, that was it. All the roads end here. But I don't want to antagonize my band, so I try to put in more chords. It's good to mix them up. I try to use more major chords. I tend towards those sad chords and mysterious chords.

Dylan has written so many songs in A minor--

And Leonard Cohen, too. So many waltzes, too. They're all 3/4 A minor, and that's it. Songs of doom. [Laughs] I just respond to them. That's the thing that gets me going.

I use a capo, and go up and down and change keys. I know how to put a show together. I don't want to put the audience to sleep. But I find emotionally that's what really resonates for me.

Is it harder for you to write songs in major keys?

Yeah, because they can sound corny. Although "Tired Of Sleeping" was major, and I feel really satisfied when I sing it.

"Book Of Dreams" is major.

Yeah, that was deliberately major. I'm gonna write a happy song if it kills me!

Your song "Fancy Poultry" is great, and it was brilliant the way you use the image of chicken parts to relate to people.

Yeah. It was about the women in Ironbound. Obviously, if it was just about chicken parts, you could put in words like liver or gizzards, and it would never work. But the breasts and thighs and hearts, that's a whole side of life. Some people don't get that thing. There's the words, and the thing behind the words.

It's one of those areas, like "Men In A War," where no one has been before in a song.

That's where I'm most comfortable. If I feel no one else is around doing it, then I feel happy. I feel like I must be in my own spot. Occa- sionally I think people will really hate this, because they'll just think I'm being morbid or grizzly. But I do have a tendency to want to bring things down to the facts of life, and the physical. Which kind of goes counter to the whole idea of being ethereal and poetic. I really am interested in the world as it is.

Some of your images are extremely physical, like the line in "A Room Off The Street," "...her dress is so tight you can see every breath that she takes." It's like a Raymond Chandler line.

It was one of those things, like "The Queen and The Soldier," where you feel like you're seeing the whole thing. The dark atmosphere, the color red, the red tapestry, the red dress, something's gonna happen but you don't know what exactly. I never thought of the similarity between those two songs until now, but there is a similar feeling. You feel as if you're watching it.

I was originally going to call it "Cuba" because that seemed to be what Cuba might be like. But then I thought, well, my last name's Vega, everyone's gonna think that I'm Cuban, and then I'll really get into trouble.

Any advice as to how to best get in touch with the source of creativity?

Be attentive. Don't listen to people who try to make you do things. Don't listen to advice. [Laughs] Don't listen to advice, and pay attention to your moods and your visions and your weird ideas and the things that seem too weird for other people to understand. There's usually something in there that's good if you listen to it and let it come out.

I guess it's really a question of how you want to spend your time. I realized also that for a long time I was spending my time on how I wanted to look, and shopping for clothes and whatever. And you can still go shopping for clothes and all that stuff, but just be attentive to the little voice that comes into your mind saying, "Men in a war..." You might have to stop everything and go, "What? Why should I pay attention to this?" But there's something in there.

Are those voices coming all the time, or--

You get on a roll. Sometimes it seems as if they're there all the time. Other times you're just as dry as can be and you can't hear anything. And that's when you need to fill yourself up with people that you love. For me, it's Lou Reed and John Cale, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Rickie Lee Jones, Natalie Merchant, R.E.M. All of these people have something vital for me.

I was wondering if you liked Rickie Lee.

I really admire her a lot. She really moved me, especially with the Pirates album. I would just listen to that like crazy. I also feel that I know where she's from, with her background and her family history. When-ever I read an interview with her, I'm very interested in her as a personality. I empathize with her a lot. I feel a connection with her. I have no idea if she feels any connection with me. I met her last year, but I just sort of feel that I know something basic about her from her music.

It used to be Laura Nyro that I used to get that from. So you go back to those people and fill yourself up. And you get yourself excited about writing again.

Is that excitement harder to connect with now that you are an established artist in the industry?

No, I find it doesn't have anything to do with it. When I met Rickie Lee Jones, my mouth was completely dry. It has nothing to do with being in the industry at all. [Laughs] It's very basic. You sit in your room like you did when you were a kid, and play the records. Maybe now you can be a little more analytical and other times you can be more business-like and think of marketing schemes. But that shouldn't have anything to do with how you feel when you're sitting alone in your room the way you did when you were a kid and it meant the world to you.

Those records, to me, were my lifeline into the world. Even when I was a receptionist, I would go and look at records, and figure out how much money I could save to buy whichever record I could get, because I could only get one. See, then you get the Berlin album and take it home, and you can't listen to it all day everyday, but you listen to it twice a year and that's enough.

Being known can create its own pressure. But I really believe it's in my blood. I think if I were not famous I would still be writing. I've written songs since I was fourteen. I got my record contract when I was 24, so I had ten years to figure out what I wanted to do. I would still write.

I love the artwork on your newest album. It reminds me of those great boxes by Jospeh Cornell.

Yeah. I wanted it to look like that. The whole idea of context and putting things into boxes and different contexts was interesting to me.

Do you have a favorite song that you've written?

Lately I think it's "Tired Of Sleeping." It has that mystery for me. I feel satisfied when I sing it.

Are you always working on songs?

I'm always writing something and working on something. People think I have writer's block, but I don't really have writer's block. It's just that my filtering process is really long. It takes months to work on something until it's right. I still have songs that I was working on for the last album that never came out. Some things will lurk around for eight years. So I'm always working on something.

Songs, as opposed to other artforms, are not physical. Unless you record them, they don't exist outside of yourself--

It's temporal. Which is why they have to be truthful. If it's not truthful, you'll forget it and it will disappear. You have to call it up and tell the story again, which means that you have to have the need to tell it. And that's the nature of songs. The chorus keeps coming back. It's a part of life. You have breakfast every morning. You wouldn't say, "I don't want breakfast today because I had it yesterday." Most of life is cyclical.

I think that's why songwriting is so primitive, and why children understand songs. They say that people with brain-damage, for example, can remember song lyrics even when they can't remember how to speak. They can't put together linear information but they'll remember the lyrics to something.

Pete Seeger recently said that he'd rather put songs on people's lips than in people's ears.

That's Pete. That's been his lifework. I listened to him as a child. That's what he does. It's visceral. Whereas with me, I always wanted to put songs in people's ears. [Laughs] I'd try to get people to stop singing along, stop clapping. It's like, I'm singing now, you be quiet. Which is not exactly the spirit of folk music. People ask me if I think I'm a folksinger, and most folksingers tend to bring people together and I tend to make people feel alienated. So I don't know how much of a folksinger I am. I do like to think that people are listening.

Is there a song that you didn't write that is a favorite?

There are a lot of them. "Famous Blue Raincoat" (by Leonard Cohen), Lou Reed's song "Caroline Says, Part II," there's a Natalie Merchant song about Jack Kerouac....there's a Rickie Lee Jones song "Western Slopes." Songs I wished I'd written myself, like some of Sting's songs.

Do you feel that there are new things to be done in songs, and that the song itself will continue to evolve?

Yeah, absolutely. The songs come from the time, and every time has its own form of folk song. Like the "Bonneville Dam" by Woody Guthrie, that's nostalgic now. But there are songs that will speak now and new songs to be written about now, and stylistic experiments to be made. Because it's not just the information. It's not just "I love you" or "we must all be brothers" but the style and the way that you sing it.

Dylan told us that the world needs no more new songs, that there are already more than enough.

There's probably an aspect of that as well. But you can't just sit around and sing all the old songs all the time. You can't. That's like saying that we have all the food we need. But if there's any reason for living, why not press forward?

There are a lot of songs that will fall by the wayside. But to get up every morning, you have to have faith. You might as well stay in bed. If I had felt all the songs spoke for me, why write? They've already done it for me. Every time I write a song I feel that I have to write it.

End of part 4

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