Suzanne Vega

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- World Before Columbus -

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Subj: Some first impressions
Date: 96-09-09 10:35:09 EDT
From: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

I can't wait to tell you about some of my first impressions of the album, but I'll try not to reveal anything so I won't spoil your own first listening (anyway you're not forced to read this):

-The songs don't suffer at all from being too short, like in the previous album, except that I wish there were fewer open-ended songs.
-I think that 'No Cheap Thrill' is a pretty bad choice for a single and I'd be very surprised if it ever became a hit. They should have chosen 'Birth-day' (surprising song for Suzanne, it could have made a hit but maybe that it would have brought a kind of public she isn't looking after), 'Headshot' (which is awesome), 'Caramel' or 'World Before Columbus'. I can say that because this is precisely the kind of thing you can only see at the first listenings.
-Suzanne has really changed, this album is much happier than the others, 'Tombstone' is almost funny, the piano makes me think of saloon music, and the song reminds me a bit of 'Black Widow Station'
-'My Favorite Plum' is really sweet
-'Honeymoon Suite' is the most Suzanne-typical song

Well I can't tell you everythiong I like in the album because it would be too long, but here are some (light) disappointments:
-It's very... weird how she repeats "Oh Yeah" in 'Stockings', but maybe it means something in the song, I'll have to read the lyrics carefully
-I've now checked all the lyrics and it seems to me that 'World Before Columbus' has the kind of lyrics she has always avoided (but the music is great). Once again I haven't translated it and maybe I'll probably change my mind soon. But moreover, when she says 'It would be as flat as the world before Columbus', well... err... I don't know how to tell you this, Suzanne, but Columbus never proved the world was round. Copernic made the theory long before, and Magellan actually proved it after Colombus'death. I won't teach anyone anything if I say that Colombus thought the world was round and so wanted to reach India by the west, and he never did, so he didn't prove anything at all.
And when she says 'It would be as cruel as the world before Columbus', well I'm not sure that her (adoptive) Puerto-Rican roots that she tries to go back to with this album would agree, it could even make them mad.

well anyway this album is more than great and it's good to see that I wasn't wrong, that I really love everything she does. What's strange is that there's really a connection between her songs and me, like I thought. I mean I already feel like I've known all these new songs long before (though they're all very innovative), they already are a part of my life.

And I think that this album can be very successful in the UK because it's a strange blend of the two UK crazes of these days: trip-hop and easy-listening music (any English undertowers can confirm that?). I don't know if it's the same in the US and I wonder if Suzanne was aware of it, but a lot of things in the album (bossa-nova, things from the 40s, 50s and 60s (like she says), plus the artwork (that I have now checked on the web)) are really close to this easy-listening fashion.

David.

Subj: World Before Columbus... sorry
Date: 96-09-11 07:28:40 EDT
From: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

>World Before Columbus (after asking how many people were into computers, she
>explained that the song had nothing to do with colonialism and mentioned that
>some of the Internet people seemed to be getting bogged down in interpreting
>this one. She said something about having to write in and tell us about it.)

Well I think this must be me. Oops!
Believe it or not, I intended to apologize today because yesterday evening I caught the meaning of the song (at least one meaning that suits me, even if it's not the real one). I don't think shes even speaking of the real Columbus, I think that Ruby (or Mitchell, I don't know) is her own little Columbus and that her body is the land... they made it round. One thing I don't quite grasp in the song is the line 'that's the day I lose half my sight', does it mean that she lost all perspective because Ruby's the biggest love she ever felt? that would explain why the song is so sentimental. And is it connected with the apple on the cover? because it actually hides half her sight. Anyway, I'm very sorry, sometimes I just shoot straight from the hip. But hey, maybe that has helped her to see that some people might misunderstand the song and find it offensive, and so she can avoid critics better.

Sorry again,
David.

Subj: Re: World Before Columbus... sorry
Date: 96-09-11 19:52:42 EDT
From: paul@caverock.co.nz (Paul LeBeau)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu (Suzanne Vega List)

> they made it round. One thing I
> don't quite grasp in the song is the line 'that's the day I lose half my
> sight', does it mean that she lost all perspective because Ruby's the
> biggest love she ever felt?

There's a more mundane answer. In one of the recent interviews (I think it may be the MPN one), she mentions how her cat scratched her eye and she had to wear a patch for a while.

As ever though, it's only one of the possible interpretations... :)

Cheers

Paul

Subj: In-stores and World Before Columbus
Date: 96-09-11 23:38:17 EDT
From: Suzanne Vega
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

Hi gang --

Sorry it has been a while since I posted but as you might imagine, I've been busy. It's been fun meeting some of you on this radio and in-store promo tour I'm doing -- I like connecting faces to the names I see so often!

There were a couple of things I wanted to clarify -- someone posted recently complaining about the imagery of World Before Columbus, saying there were other explorers before Columbus who proved the world was round, and that the line "cruel as the world before Columbus" was one that my Puerto-Rican stepfather wouldn't have liked, implying, I guess that I was talking about the cruelty of Native Americans? or indiginous people in general?

Normally I let criticisms go, but this one offends me because it is not what I mean, not how I was raised, and not what I believe. To me, the main image of this song is that of the world being flat if this person's love were taken away. Nowhere do I mention Indians. A flat world (surrounded by demons) that one could fall off and never get back to is my idea of a cruel world. Similarly, when I say the world could be as "dark as the world before Columbus" I am NOT talking about Africa, savages or anything like that, implying that Columbus somehow civilized the world and made it bearable.

I am only referring to the one belief -- that the world was flat. That's all. As for the other explorers you mentioned -- their names don't sing as well. I guess the choruses are clear enough. Most of the time I don't mind interpretations, but I found this one offensive.

I also wanted to answer Charlie's question of a month or two ago -- before he shelled out the money for the new album he wanted my position on gay rights, marriage, adoption, the whole shebang. For the record, I think gay people should have the right to marry, with all the privileges of marriage -- no, I don't think it tears at the moral fiber of society, (as someone suggested); I think quite the opposite. But I don't think you should buy the album because of my political beliefs! I am not running for office. But since you wanted my position -- there it is.

I enjoyed the live chat the other night! I'll see you soon! It's been an exciting week. Thanks to everyone --

love,
Suzanne

Subj: World Before SV's posting
Date: 96-09-12 09:02:13 EDT
From: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

You know I felt really bad that I had misunderstood 'World Before Columbus' but today I talked to a friend who doesn't like Suzanne (but who doesn't dislike her neither). I hadn't told her about the story but she told me she had heard the song on the CD from Les Inrockuptibles and she (who understands little English) and her friend (who is bilingual) had been very shocked by it and she asked me if Suzanne were racist. I explained her the whole story and now she knows. But what about all the other people who will hear the song and who won't read the lyrics carefully? I think this song is really great but Suzanne might (unfairly) be in big trouble with it. I'm afraid she might now feel like she has to justify herself when she performs the song, because Columbus represents evil for Native North Americans and also a lot of the South Americans. Can anyone in South America confirm this? Anyway, like I said that's no longer what *I* think of the song.

David.

Subj: Re: World Before SV's posting
Date: 96-09-12 10:27:02 EDT
From: wchapman@mizar.usc.edu (Wendy Chapman)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: algranti@club-internet.fr (David Algranti)
CC: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

Hi All,

It is so interesting to me this whole controversy about "World Before Columbus" as it is probably my favorite song on the album. I've been making my friends who are mothers listen to it--especially if they have a daughter. I cry every time I hear it and only because I see A Mother telling her Daughter these deep emotions that she feels about her child. I haven't really thought about the Native American issue and all that because it just seemed to me that the Mother's position is that somehow her life became round and formed since the birth of her child and if something were to happen, she would go to a place that is flat and cold and bleak.

I hope when people hear this song they hear the love the mother has for the child and that's the focus. One mother who listened to it was a little shocked at the line: "If your life was taken from me" She said, "Girl, you don't even think about that."--to the CD player--I think she was talking to Suzanne. But this line never surprised me coming from Suzanne as she seems to be one to think about these things and express these thoughts that a lot of people might have but refuse to acknowledge. I think she confronts this possibility.

Yes, this is my favorite song and I don't read as much of an historical slant as some others might be reading. I read a very deep and persnal emotional slant to the song--one that is really beautiful and touching.

Wendy!

Subj: Re: World Before SV's posting
Date: 96-09-12 13:37:18 EDT
From: max7531@earthlink.net (Max Headroom)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

>I think this song is
>>really great but Suzanne might (unfairly) be in big trouble with it. I'm
>>afraid she might now feel like she has to justify herself when she performs
>>the song, because Columbus represents evil for Native North Americans and
>>also a lot of the South Americans.
>>Can anyone in South America confirm this? Anyway, like I said that's no
>>longer what *I* think of the song.
>>
>>David.

Well she obviously feels very strongly about the meaning and about what WE feel the song means. (I mean nobody wants to be called a RACIST after all) I say for myself that I never got a racist interpritation from hearing the song and still don't. Also, to say that Columbus represents evil may be true in terms of Native American feeling, but it isn't true in reality. Does anyone remember the song- "Christopher Columbus, sailed across the ocean, in fourteen hundred and ninety two. Christopher Columbus, sailed across the ocean, to find a better life for me and you." Whethter that means a better life for Native Americans or immigrants the song doesn't say. The point is, CC's travels were not designed to create genocide. CC had no "Prime Directive" like on Star Trek. And just because CC isn't "politicaly correct" these days doesn't allow people to become stupid. I think the whole topic is disgusting. So far, the argument I've heard is- "Christopher Columbus is given credit for discovering the world wasn't flat. Suzanne Vega wrote a song about "The world before" such a discovery. But SOME people think CC was an evil guy who went around the world enslaving it's innocent cultures. Therefore, SV is a racist and a Nazi for mentioning such a person in her song." I have a question for those who hate Columbus- What would you do if you were in his place? NOT discover the New World? NOT try to find a better way to India and help your country's economy? Give me a break...

Max Headroom

Subj: Re: World Before SV's posting
Date: 96-09-12 14:58:40 EDT
From: djhamma@aloha.net (David J. Hammar)
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

At 10:26 AM 9/12/96 -0700, Max Headroom wrote:
>anyone remember the song- "Christopher Columbus, sailed across the ocean, in
>fourteen hundred and ninety two. Christopher Columbus, sailed across the
>ocean, to find a better life for me and you."

Yeah -- wasn't that by the Animals? :) (Well, I'm sure CC had the same senitiment, at least.)

I've found this whole issue pretty interesting so far. I, for one, *haven't* had the opportunity to listen to the song firsthand (didn't want to spoil the surprise by reading the lyrics or listening to small pre-release bits -- but my "NOOD" CD is "in the mail" at this very moment!) so I haven't decided whether it could be that easily misinterpreted. I can't help wondering, though, if Suzanne has had any second thoughts about the title...

IMHIPSTO, confusion as to the meaning of this song could actually be a positive thing. One or more organizations interpret this as an affront to Native Americans (North, South or Central) and begins a "Boycott Suzanne Vega" campaign. The national/international media picks up the story. Curiosity seekers buy her CD. Over the next few days, as CNN broadcasts images of the same organizations burning piles of newly-purchased SV CD's, Suzanne is interviewed extensively, and viewers are won over by her perfectly rational explanation. More of them run out to buy her new CD, then, liking what they hear, pick up her older material. Offended organizations, having now made their point regarding their feelings concerning C.C., make public peace with Suzanne (while not admitting they were mistaken regarding the meaning of the song) and go home (playing NOOD in the car on the way). The world has been enlightened as to the importance of political sensitivity, and Suzanne has received more publicity than A&M has given her in her entire career. NOOD wins a few Grammys, which Suzanne and Mitchell dedicate to Ruby in their "thank you" speeches. World peace is declared...

Well, that's one scenario, at least :)

-- Dave H.
http://www.aloha.net/~djhamma

Subj: World Before SV's posting -Reply
Date: 96-09-13 09:23:33 EDT
From: rossc@slf.org
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

Alas, from only hearing the title, I assumed "World before Columbus" was talking about the pre-columbian world literally. I have not heard the song yet, so I think I qualify as a typical experimental subject.

I think that as late as the 1960's, many people indeed would have closely associated Columbus and the world's (european world of course) idea of the shape of the world. But he is now more often associated with adventurism and imperialism - all that PC stuff.

So it's a good thing Suzanne has got some explaining practice in!

But it sure is cool getting email from SV at work. The world after listervs...

Charlie Ross
rossc@slf.org

Subj: re: "Girl, you don't even think about that."
Date: 96-09-13 09:38:13 EDT
From: rossc@slf.org
Sender: owner-undertow@law.emory.edu
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

Of course, as a parent, I know that this fear forms the very pit of one's fears. Of course you think about it, have nightmares about it, obsess about it. And that's from a father! It's obviously moreso for birth mothers. And the life of a celibrity makes parenthood that much more touchy. Consider Eric Clapton & "Tears in Heaven".

So it's a pretty brave thing to sing. I always wonder how Clapton deals with singing Tears in Heaven, not to mention hearing it on the radio.

Subj: First NOOD impressions and a quick de-lurk
Date: 96-09-14 14:44:12 EDT
From: FroggyJen@aol.com
To: undertow@serv4.law.emory.edu

Hi Undertowers!

Oh me, I never post here. It's so bad of me. But last night I finally got out of my house -- the only time I've left in the past week is to go to school! yikes! -- for dinner with a friend, and after, since I had leftover money, we ran across the street to Barnes and Noble. My original plan was to buy Weetzie Bat, by Francesca Lia Block, but when they didn't have it, I decided to tease myself by looking at NOOD, even though I knew that I wouldn't be able to afford the $15 they'd charge for it. So I wandered to the music section, looked at the front table, and GASP! There was Suzanne with her redder-than-before hair and apple for only $11.99!! Much excitement...I found myself talking to her on the cover of the album. (Yes, I'm an idiot, but I'm also the girl who says hello and goodbye to the Tori Amos poster in the music store down the street :) .) So of course I bought it and herded my friend out of the store and home as fast as I could so I could *finally* listen to the album and read all of the letters I had from the list! (I didn't let myself read anything about NOOD because I didn't want to spoil the surprise.... Great idea, unless you've *got* to read the posts so you can get them organized and converted to HTML for the web page. We all know that *I'll* be doing today... ::grin::)

First impressions -- I *love* World Before Columbus. Wendy!, I love the way you described the song. Listening to it reminds me of when I was very small, and at night my parents would come in and sit on my bed, and the hall light would be on to give some light to my room, and my dad would bring his guitar in and sing Peter Paul & Mary and Pete Seeger and Weaver's songs to put me to sleep.

No Cheap Thrill is another favorite...it makes me want to dance in my chair and conduct like I do with some of my favorite Tori songs. The only problem with this is that the chair is broken and makes squeaking noises that interfere with the song. Oh well... :)

I like the first four songs (I'm too lazy to type them out, but you know who they are :) a lot, too. This is just a great album. I doesn't give me the feeling that Solitude Standing did when I first got it, though...it's more of a Days Of Open Hand feeling for me. This is a good thing, of course...I *loved* DOOH when I got it.

I suppose I'll go back to my little corner now...
Goodbye friends.
Jen.
who is disappointed that (a) she missed Shawn Colvin when she was here, and (b) Suzanne won't be gracing Texas with her wondrous presence. Hello DFW folks! I'm one too! "Never send a scary monster to do the work of an evil scientist!"

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